? hole No. 040.
Tarborough, (Edgecombe County, J C.J talurdinj, June 2, 1838.
Vol. XIV No 23.
i
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SPEECH
Of the Hon. Edward Stanly, in the
House of Representatives, on the 28th
April, in the debate on the Duel Reports.
Mr. STANLY" asked the Speaker if the
nuestion before the House was unou the
postponement aiivl the printing of the re
port. (The Speaker answered in t he al
tinnative.) Mr. S. then said the debatt
had taken so wide a range, and so many
natters had been discussed, not at all con
netted with the subject, that it was neces
sary to inquire, that his remarks might b
(confined to the matter immediately before
the House.
s I have not been able (Mr. S. continued)
to bear the whole debate upon this subject,
and i regret it exceedingly; for I shqulo
doubtless have been highly entertained,
and materially profited, by the learning,
information, and ingenuity of the various
''gentlemen who have addressed the House
upon this matter. 1 am anxious, sir, to
'occupy the time of the House but a few
initiates, and shall therefore avoid a repe
tition of arguments which have been ad
vanced and maintained by gentlemen bet
ter able to do justice to the subject than 1
am. I shall proceed to notice the argu
ments in the order in which they were
made. And first, sir, let me thank the able
jurist from Tennessee, (Mr. Turney,) for
-his highly interesting dissertations upon
illie law, not only of Tennessee, but of al
iinost'all the States,' relative to grand ju
, lies. From the extent of this gentleman's
information, 1 should, sir, if it be proper to
' express an opinion, venture to say that he
. well deserves a placeon the judiciary com
' miiiee. His views ol the laws of sheriffs
; and sheriffs' sales most strangely brought
into discussion here possess the merit of
novelty, at least; and I shall not be guilty
i, of the presumption of denying his posi
tions, but will merely say, that if he will
; take the trouble to look more minutely into
: the laws of other Slates, he will find he la-
bors under misapprehension; and, if the
gentleman will pardon me, I rather think
I he had in his mind some of the laws of the
republic of Franklin, (or Fronklaud,) and
! not those of the enlightened Stale of Ten
! ncssee.
t It was urged as an argument against the
j printing of this report, that the committee
j had exceeded their powers; that they had
I passed judgment upon several members ol
tliis House, without giving them a chance
f of being heard in their defence; and that
j to publish this report, under surh circum-
stances, would have the effect of making
m.iavorable impressions on the public
mind as to the conduct of those w ho were
concerned in this transaction.
To this the learned gentleman from the
judiciary committee replied, that to sup
press the report would do much more to
'blast the character' of those gentlemen
than to publish it; and thai it was our duty
first to publish the report, and then exam
ine whether ihe committee have exceeded
their powers! Now, sir, I cannot see the
lurce or propriety of this argument. If an
idle hoy should present a gun at his com
panion, and be told, Take care, it may be
loaded! he might with as much reason say,
I will shoot first, and then see! Here is a
report, alledged to have been made from
improper testimony a one-sided report,
made by persons opposed, violently op
posed, in their political feelings and opin
ions well calculated to injure more than
one member of (his House in public esti
mation; and w e are told, publish this, send
forth to the world this resolution for expul
sion, those for censures, and then we will
examine if we have been right in so doing.
Hut, sir, I leave the learned gentleman
learned in the laws "of most of the States"
and assure him, with all sincerity, that the
ingenuity of his argument suits his law
opinions, and his law opinions his argu
ment. Two gentlemen from New York (Messrs.
Parker and Foster) have also addressed
te House upon this subject, and they both
'k who it is that complains of the pro-
l: r .i
... au.uLMiieui, as tney are pleased to call
uiose ruies in Jt liersou's Manual; and they
are generous enough to intimate that they
.....iQ iu uuH mem a nine time,
upon sufficient cause shown, to provide for
ineir oeience, it they come forward and
ask it for themselves.
Mr. Speaker, I answer the benevolent
gentlemen from New York, and tell them
that those who interpose what they call
"cobwebs of form," do not ask, do not sup
plicate for any favors at their hands, or
from this House. We who set up these
pleas are those who believe. we are protect
ing the interests of ourselves and our con
stituents, guarding the honor and dignity
and feelings of members who are not ask
ing kindness from us, but who demand a
lair and impartial tribunal to investigate
their conduct. For one, 1 shall require
ihat the interests and feelings of those they
represent shall be looked to by us; I de
mand it as a representative of a high-minded
people, who would be unwilling to see
injustice done to any representative. I
ask, sir, do these gentlemen know against
whom they are proceeding? With respect,
I must say they forget themselves. They
peak as if they were silling in judgment
wpon the conduct of criminals and felons.
Sir, the gentlemen whom they have so un
expectedly arraigned are their equals on
.Ins floor; ihpy represent, under the Con
xlitution and laws of our country, as re
sectable a body of men as any of those
io who so unwarrantably have undertaken
to try them. They have rigllts and inter
ests to represent and protect here, and for
me, they shall have, on their own account,
if no other reason was given, all that the
Constitution and laws entitle them to.
They shall have all their rights, whether
ihey ask for them or not. Would those
gentlemen require of the members whose
conduct this committee have been investi
gating, to file an affidavit and continue
this trial? If the gentleman from the Ju
diciary Committee will pardon me for
touching upon his branch of business, I
would say this is not a case to require an
affidavit. We are told, sir, rather with an
air of boasting, that these gentlemen have
been allowed ihe privilege of cross exami
nation. What is the value of such a privi
lege, constituted as this couiniiitee was?
Wonderful clemency, to gie ihem a right
they could not exercise! Look to the
journal of this committee, and se how of
ten questions weie objected io, and we
shall see that this privilege was v.oith lit
tle. Mr. Speaker, I shall dwell no longer
upon the remarks of the gentlemen from
New York. Tliev have be en swept away
by the able gentleman from Virginia, (Mr.
Robertson,) and I shall not, therefore, fa
tigue you by any thing further upon these
"cobwebs."
1 have not been able, sir, to sit still du
ring this most extraordinary and unprece
dented proceeding, without feeling some
excitement. Hut deeming it my duty not
to trespass upon our time, merely to grati
fy my own feelings, I should have continu
ed silent, as I have hitherto done, but for
an argument which has been boldly ad
vanced by more than one gentleman who
has taken part in this discussion. It is this,
sir: That the petitions which were referr
ed to the committee, praying for the expul
sion of several members of this House,
gave to this committee the authority to re
port these resolutions for expulsion and
censure. Now, sir, I cannot consent to
this; I must protest against it. This argu
ment, coming from someparts of our coun
try, would not surprise me. But, sir, the
gentleman from Georgia holds up some of
these petitions in Ins hands; he desired
them to be read; and he says, too, that the
reference of these petitions conferred the
authority to report these resolutions. Does
the gentleman from Georgia (Mr. Grant
laud) not see how this argument, upon
other petitions, may be used against him?
A gentleman, too, coming from a part of
the world representing what we call the in
terests of our "peculiar institutions." Mr.
Speaker, I am not going to discuss this
question; I shall observe the resolution of
the 21st December strictly. You need
not, therefore, be ready to make "sugges
tions" as to rules; 1 promise you to keep in
order.
Let me suppose that another Congress
is in session; that petitions are poured in
upon us, praving lor the abolition of slave
ry, not only in the District of Columbia,
but for the regulation of commerce be
tween the States to forbid the selling of
slaves. These petitions, if the resolution
of 21st December is rescinded, may be re
ferred to the Committee for the District of
Columbia, or to a select committee. And
now, sir, let me suppose that we have an
abolition Speaker in that chair, and he ap
uccumgs oi tne committee, who asks for
time and evidence, who sets up these pleas
points a committee to suit his own notions,!
a,,u"le pennons are handed over to
them. They not only pray to abolish sla
very, but they are sometimes couched in
the most indecorous, shameful, and abu
sive language; they represent slavery as a
"wrong and an evil, irreconcilable with
the principles of natural justice and hu
manity, forbidden by the precepts of
Christianity, and at war with the free prin
ciples of our Government." And to a
committee who entertained such opinions,
and had such a precedent as is now at
tempted to be established, it would be re
garded as a bounden duty to report a bill
granting the requests of the petitioners.
And would the gentleman from Georgia
then admit that the reference of the peti
tions conferred the authority? No, sir; I
will not do him the injustice to think so
for a moment. Yet he could, with as much
propriety, say so then as he does now, and
let me ask him to think to what extent this
authority may be carried. These petitions
may pray for the expulsion of those who
are guilty of violating the "precepts of
Christianity," and ihere might be 'select'
committees who would cratify popular
clamor, by reporting resolutions to carry
into eliect the prayer of the petitions.
Mr. Speaker, 1 have said all that I fell
bound to say, in discharge of my duty, as
a Southern man. I3ut for this argument
just referred lo, I should not have tukeu
part in this discussion. 1 have slated it as
briefly as possible, and shall, as I promised
you, observe the rules, and not exuies
uiy opinion of the course which 1 have
supposed might be pursued hereafter. 1
will not, however, resume my seal without
noticing some ol ihe remarks which fell
Irom the chairman of this committee.
I'liis gentleman commenced his last speech
with becoming solemnity, and I confess,
sir, 1 was starlled as his sepulchral tones
lell upon my ear. It was his solemnity of
tone and manner which attracted my at
tention, no doubt in accordance with his
feelings'. He spoke lamentably, 1 thought,
w hen I turned round, I should see Ham
let's ghost, marching down the aisle, with
extended arm, tellinu his friends
This visitation
Is but to whet thy almost blunted purpose."
From that gentleman's position, I did
expect a moral essay. I did expect some
gic in defence of his conduct. Hut, sir,
his whole speech excited the most indig
nant feelings in my breast, lie too, sir,
(and I am not surprised at it,) lakes the
ground that the petitions conferred theati-
thoriiy on the commiltee; that these peti
tions pray for the expulsion of certain mem
bers of this House, and call them by name.
And, sir, let me ask him, if he was so anx
ious to gratify the desires of these petition
ers, why docs he not report a resolution
for the expulsion of all concerned? The
petitions, some of them, pray for ihe ex
pulsion of the whole. Was no other mem
ber of this House concerned? Did not
the petitions pray for the arraignment of
ames Watson Webb? Out these kind
judges, so anxious to discharge their duty
strictly, measure the punishment, not as
the petitioners w ished, but as they believed
just and expedient. They determine who
shall be expelled, and who censured, and
who shall be most severely punished, by no
further notice!
The gentleman from Connecticut did not
reply with great courtesy to the venerable
gentleman from Massachusetts. He com
menced with a gross, I will not say inten
tional, perversion of his argument. He
ays the gentleman from Massachusetts
(Mr. Adams) said, "this committee had
committed a erealer breach of privilege
than one who has imbrued his hands in his
brother's blood." No one who heard the
remarks of the gentleman from Massachu
setts will say that he used language.of this
sort; it belongs to the chairman alone : no
other member has thus spoken. It is not
my part to answer this remark of the gen
tleman from Connecticut; I shall not, there
fore, say more of it than to call the atten
tion of the House to the language used by
ihe chairman. 'Imbrued his hands in his
brother's blood' is language becoming
another place and a different business from
that in which we are now engaged. I have
heard it, sir, in courts where they were try
ing one who had been 'moved and instiga
ted by the devil,' and who had, with mal
ice aforethought,' taken away the life of a
fellow-creature, from no motive of self-defence,
impelled by no respect for th opin
ion of the world, but to gratify malice, or
lo acquire the filthy lucre of this world. 1
say, sir, it is highly improper here. If it
is intended to. excite passion, and inflame
prejudice, it deserves the severest reproof.
It is evident, sir, this chairman has mista
ken his business. Instead of inquiring into
the breach of privilege, he has been seek
ing out some method of punishing an of
fence against Divine command, out, sir,
I expect that this is not all I
must no
nce with disapprobation. The chair
man alluded n i,e 'better days' of
the gentleman from Massachusetts, as
he was pleased to call them. I shall not
undertake the defence of the gentleman
from Massachusetts; he needs none. He
is well able lo take care of himself. He
has been nearly half a century in the ser
vice of his country, and if there was no
other consideration, this entitles him to re
spect. I fell surprise at hearing such re
marks from one from the land of steady
habits, and I felt indignant at hearing such
language ppplied lo an old man to one
who had been the First Magistrate of the
first nation in the world. What did he
mean by his better days?' I have been
taught lo believe thai a man's better days
w ere ihe days of his old age. Sir, his bet
ter days are now. The gentleman was
mistaken if he meant his physical powers
are decayed. His mind grows stronger,
then, as his body decays. 1 am willing to
believe that these words escaped the chair
man in the heal of debate, and upon re
flection he will regret the expression.
I had intended to notice the remarks of
the Chairman, upon the various cases he
cited, but it would be unpardonable pre-!
sumption to attempt to say more upon this.
The able gentleman from V i. ( Mr. Robert
son) iu a masterly manner has sifted this
argument, and there I leave it, w ith a sin
gle remark. In the cases cited, no one
w as taken by surprise, every body knew
find expected what was to take place. The
individuals themselves, who were most in
terested. I iiiew what was going on, and
had notice lo prepare for it.
1 ask, sir, did any man suppose these
gentlemen, whom we are now trying, (as
some of us think,) were lo be put on their
trial for any high offence? No one thought
so; ihey themselves had not the most re
mote idea that they were giving testimony
against themselves before this grand jury ,
who were also to be their judges. If this
be your trial of the Representative of y
respectable portion of our People, you arc
more unjust to him than we are in our
part of the world to the vilest of the vile
In 'some of the Slates,' ihe laws of which
have escaped the notice of the gentleman
from Teun. (Mr. Turney,) we give a right
lo challenge jurors, to select a jury, and
we sometimes exclude those who have
formed and expressed opinions even upon
rumor. In a tiill.ug matter of pounds,
shillings aud pence, we give an impartial
jury, auu yet, sir, il llie course recom
mended by the committee is to be pursued,
you will deal with greater severity to
wards a membei of this House, than any
Court iti our country would with a felon.
Expulsion from this House would be to an
honorable man worse than death, and this
is sought to be done by a verdict of those
who had made up their opinion before
hand, and believe they were instructed lo
do so, to gratify the people!
Mr. Speaker, if you thought, sir, that
the members whom this commiltee are
seeking to punish were to be put on their
trial, you would not have selected a parly
committed for the purpose; you could not
have been guilty of so flagrant a violation
of the rules of propriety; you could nol
have treated so disrespectfully, so outra
geously trampled on, the rights of those
they represent! If you had thought this
proceeding lo inquire and investigate was
a trial of members, you would not have
given a packed jury. I w ill nol think you
could do an act so unworthy of a member
of this House, and of the chair you now
occupy; you could not, you would not,
you dared not, have been guilty of such
outrage, without disrespect to iheir consti
tuents and to your own. You would have
given them an impartial tribunal, and not
one which had already formed opinions,
and were ready to condemn. You would
not have denied lo a Representative on this
floor the privilege ordinarily given to a
felon.
Mr. Speaker, I will not trouble the
House longer. In raising my voice a
gainst the construction this committee pui
upon the reference of these petitions, 1
have discharged my duty. I voted against
the appointment of this committee, not
from a wish to prevent inquiry into any
breach of privilege, but because I saw we
were proceeding under the influence of
feelings highly excited. ! wished for the
postponement recommended by the gen
tleman from Tenn. (Mr. Bell,) that reason
might resume her throne, that passion
might pass away, and we could act with
deliberation. This war denied. The
consequence has been, thai those who we
thought were a committee of investigation
have been acting as judges and jurors; as
a Court lo punish offences. 1 conclude,
Better days' was the term employer1 by Mrt
Toucey in debate, though he has been differently
reported in his printed speech.
sir, with demanding on my own account
for those now implicated, for our mutual
rights, a fair and impartial tribunal.
Several members having made some re
marks Mr. Toucey here asked the reading of a
document which he sent to the Clerk's ta
ble. He said, before he took his seat, he
did not know but he onulu to notice the
remarks of the member from North Caro
lina, (Mr. Slanly,) who had seen fit to
raise his puny voice, and lo brandish his
dagger of lath on this occasion. That
member had gone out of his way, and vol
unteered his services to interfere between
Mr. T. -nd the gentleman from Massachu
setts, (Mr. Adams,) who had made a vio
lent attack upon the committee. He had
said that the House had expected from Mr.
T. a moral essay, but had been disap
pointed. Mr. T. could not say as much
respecting the member from North Caro
lina. For the House, he was very sure, had
expected from him no essay of any kind.
The document having been read
Mr. Boon made some remarks.
Mr. W. C. Johnson obtained the floor,
and was about to address the House, w hen
he yielded it at the request of
Mr. STANLY, who said: I am happy,
Mr. Speaker, indeed, sir, I am proud, ihat
the honorable chairman of this Investiga
ting Committee has so kindly condescen
ded to "notce" me. It is an honor I will
endeavor duly to appreciate; a notice, al
though unfavorable, from so distinguished
a gentleman, cannot but excite pleasing
emolious.
The distinguished chairman of this
committee says he did not expect an essay
from me. If, sir, I have said any thing
worthy of being listened to by the House
or any member of it, if I have advanced
arguments entitled to any respect, I have
the advantage of the chairman. From
him something was expccied. We got
nothing nothing al least like argument
or reasoning! And nothing was expected
from im ; but it seems something came,
which ha attracted his espei ial notice.
He complains, sir, that I censure him
for w ords spoken in the "heal oi debate."
Mow, sir, I endeavored to palliate his con
duct, by using these very words, aud said
I had no doubt he had uttered this lan
guage, to which I took exception, "in the
heat of debate" and, in his calmer mo
ments, he would undoubtedly diappruve
of ihem. I was more charitable than the
chairman gives me credit for.
Next, sir, he says that I "interfered"
between the honorable gentleman from
Massachusetts (Air. Adams) and himself.
He greatly mistakes my arguments, and
my conduct, if he calls ihis interference. I
surely did not intend to interfere, sir, be
ttveen the gentleman from Massachusetts
and this modest chairman, w ho deems him
self his match. I only exercised a privi
lege 1 thought, and still think, I was enti
tled to, in replying to remarks made in de
bale upon a question befoie the House. I
have no doubt this chairman would be ex
ceedingly glad to make up an issue upon
this matter between the gentleman fiom
Massachusetts aud himself. He must al
low me to say, notoriety, in this mischie
vous proceeding, he seems to be seeking
greedily; and, rather than be without it, or
for fear of not having enough, he is willing
to take it at the hands of the gentleman
from Massachusetts. Mr. Speaker, this
chairman is a learned and classical gentle
man, I dare say. He must have heard that
"ihe aspiring youth who burnt the Kphe
sian dome outlived in lame the pious fools
who built it;" and having given up in desr
pair the hope of obtaining distinction, by
pursuing the dictates of a high and noble
ambition, Erostratus like, impelled by the
same spirit for distinction, lor notoriety,
eager for the approving words of a party,
he is willing to be the instrument ol surh
gross injustice lo the geniltmen he seems
to think he has been trying, and anxious to
be thrown indirect conflict wii li tie gen
tleman from Massachusetts! 1 ce;nimend
his aspirations for fame, but he may pay
loo dearly for it.
I did say, sir, and 1 repeat it, that his
language in reply to the remarks of the
gentleman from Massachusetts aroused in
my bosom feelings of deep indignation.
This chairman did not bring these feelings
and sentiments from the Scripture-taught
land of Connecticut. They have sprung
from a disappointed, malignant ambition,
in a committee room, and have been nur
tured in the bitterness of parly spirit. He
not only replied to his arguments unfairly,
but perverted them shamrfully; and, sir, I
ask him again, what did he mean by "his
better days?" Does he mean, sir, the time
when he had patronage to bestow, and of
fice to confer? These are a man's "better
days," (are they?) with this feeling chair
man. Did he mean, sir, the days had past
when his physical powers were in their