rVOLUME IV.
NEWBERN, N. C. SATURDAY, FEBUARY 2, J 822.
NUMBER 02
L
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.TE0 ASO FCBL1SHED WEEKLY, BY
PASTEUR $ WATSON,
" ner annum half in advance
DEBATE OS THE
CONVENTION QUESTION
- HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Dec. 13, 1821.
m.- flmise formed
itself into a com-
-.cre0f the whole, Mr. Bricketlin the
Cl.a.r on me 1
p ;led hV 31 r,. rtsncr liuiu yausuuijr, uu
the 1 liii'instant : 'i
1 Hcs Aved by the General Aisemhly
f Srfth-Carolinn, That the representa
tion of tl people of this State in both
i' ,nrhes of the Legislature udder the
ent Constitution is greatly unequal,
Lust, aad anti-republican.
c.JEht to be so amended as that each
c-riz-n of the State should have an equal
Jure i e rlgnt of representation upon
th principle of free white population, in
cluding three filths of all other persons.
3. VUeref'ire Resolved, That at the
nt Election for Members of the Asscm
the people of rhis State, who are en
tile! to vote for Members of the House
flf Commons, be invited to vote at the
iiiJ election, whether tney are in lavor
0d Convention, or not, by writing on j
their ticket, Convention or Dio Conven
tion. 4. Res Jvcdf That the Sheriff of each
Cunty in this State, or other returning
5cers, be and they are hereby directed,
iia nediately after the next election, to
ascertain the number of votes given for
or i.'jinst a Convention, and to make
on i correct statement thereof, and trans
n i t!i? same to the Governor, to be laid
before the n-xt Assembly.
dr. FisiiKRsaid, before he entered up-
c.i tht. subject of the Resolutions, lie
express his thanks for the very
Ci.n teuu-; manner with which the House I
ht I thus far treatd-his proposition. He !
c.u!d not forbar: contrasting their con- J
duct on this occasion with that of another
htv not far oft : and he was proud that
j
trv comparison rcuounas so mucn 10 me
advantage of this House. When a raem
tr, said Mr. F.. rises in his place,; and
sjbmits a respectful proposition, it is no
thing but justice to give him an opportu
c:ty of deliveringiiis reasons in its favor
it is common courtesy to let hiin be
heard. But for the majority to arrest" it
at the threshold, and at once out it down, ,
is neither justice nor courtesy. Major
ities should remember, that minorities too
Lave rights. And, Sir, when the majority
ot a deliberative Assembly,, in the true-
spint ot tyranny, prohibits debate, gloo
ray indeed is the prospect of an impartial I
decision at such a tribunal. In looking
ii. on such a body, we are almosi temp
ted to s:iy, as it is said of Dante's Hell.
u Hope uever enters here' . But, if one
branch of the Legislature has shewn us
thj ue have nothing to hope from them,
aiuy rejoice lhat prospects are more
promising here that in this house he
will at least be decently heard. Mr. F. said
he regretted the occasion that had called
fo'th these remarks. He would now pro
cevM tj the subject before the committee.
ir, when a Convention is talked of,
e immediately hear the cry of the sa
c.vuuess of the Constitution that it is
tiie work of our forefathers, and, there
kie, it is next ta sacrilege to touch it.
This cant is the chief argument used
by many against calling a Convention,
a.'rl, as there are some well-meaning per
sons on whom it has influence, Mr. F.
sa.d he would, in the first place, c-ill the
attention of gentlemen to the circumstan
ces under which the Constitution was
formed, and see if these were the most
favorable for the accomplishment of a
UfirL- nl" curd mii!t..,l.. II 1. 1 .1.
- - - - ... w.iuui.. n uum i lie 1 1
proceed to point out some of the defects
ct thr Constitution requiring amendment.
.When we consider the state of things
under which the Constitution was framed,
K ulJ be a miracle were it otherwise
tani defective. The whole continent
full of confusion ; in our orcn Slate
re particularly, the difference among
t"' people ran high. The majority, it is
tr a, were in favor of the new order of
tu' but there were many that still ad
ci to the old and all, from habits,
education, and early feelings, were
F. alluded to the conduct of the
When .Mr. Williamson intro-
'late.
Jced Resolutions similar to those of Mr.
that body refused to refer them to a
utitee of the whole Hou-. or even
' 'v them on the table, but iawed a
t
...v.. mv irj-.i iiieni ill - . o
. r A l .
.vv ua nowever tuey agretra lo ;c.i
JlrthelUohjtious. j
olulCllCu IO IIIC principles ui inc. uiuisn wi .., uit,iui ncic Qiyajjia- wmv ncit in mi, ucimij: vum- ai c iiruiiucs uujiuuig tw aKCJ cnumejg
I Government thev still thouzht Uhat the ken by "Coupties and towns." In that mons, Columbus, has as many members ted in view 3d. also contain about on
British Consitution and forms, were the I of Halifax,; a proposition was made to as Rowan so that it is riot (the people as third of the free population of the State.'
wisest and the best. Sir, if it was neces
sary to stop by the way to prove the ex
istence! of these feelings, proofs are abun
dant. The very Congress that framed
the Constitution furnish proofs. That
body, in the most solemn manner, signed
a test in which these attachments were
declared. Tue Congress that: met at
Hillsborough, only twelve months before,
also furnish proofs;! thevin like manner
signed the test, acknowledging the Urit-
ish Constitution and Laws. L"ere Ar'
F. read several extracts from the Jour
nals ofj the Congresses of Hillsborough
and Halifax, to shew the feelings that
prevailed in those bodies, and their high
estimation of the forms and Jaws of the
mother! country. Cut continued he, be-:
sides ihse feelings, stronglV inclining
that body to the adoption, in the new
Constitution, of British and Provincial
forms and principles, 'there were still many
oilier embarrassments th.it surrounded
them, j They were engaged in a work to
them new; new indeed to the world.
History furnished no example where any
people had met together, under like cir
cumslances to frame a government for
themselves,
as vet, hut
I nnctifiilloii.iii'.iL ntii n'oc
Wi'lioiliuuwii-iiiimuiv ttu,
little known i hey were
without the light of experience, -or the
benefit, of the examples of the other
States ; for, as yet, but few of the Stales
had formed thfir Conslitutions. ' Under
circumstances like these, is it at all sur
prising that the Congress at Hafifax
should form a Constitution partaking
largely of the features and forms of tne
British institutions ? Indeed, it was their
design and policy to do so, in order that
it niisiht be the more acceutable to all
classes of the people. In an address pub
lished by the Congress of Hillsborough,
to the British people, we find the follow
ing sentiment, ' Whenever ice hauc de-
parted from the forms of the Constitu-
tton, our own safety ana self-picserva
tion have dictated tue expedient."
'Bat there is another fact that must be
considered on this part of the subject.
Mr. F. said, until within a short time, he
had all along entertained the opinion, that
the Congress of Halifax had bee chosen
and convened for the express and sole
ouruose of forming a Constitution. This
was far from being the case Judging
from the Journals of that body, the for
mation of a Constitution seems to have
been but a minor object of their atten
tion. The Congress met and proceeded
to business. In a few days, a committee
was raised for the purpose of draughting
and reporting a Bill of Rights and the
form of a Constitution. The Congress
then resumed its other business, of which
it had a vast crowd, such as naturally a-
rose out of the state of the times, and the
situation of the country. Thus they went
on, until the committee reported the form
of a Constitution and Bill of Rights.
wnich were examined, amended, passed
at short intervals their several readings,
and finally adopted. Judging from the
Journalsthe whole time bestowed by the
Congress on that subject, could not have
equalled more than three or four days, at
the roost ; and, out of two quires of pa
per containing the Journal, not more than
three pages are taken np with the pro
ceedings on the subject of the Constitu
tion. After the adoption of the Consti
tution, the Congress continued in session
for some time, devoting its attention to
the many interesting and embarrassing
subjects before it;-sudi as raising troops,
providing the ways and. means, hearing
memorials, and settling the internal con
dition of the State. These things, said
Mr. F. I only mention to shew the pres
sing difficulties that engaged the attention
of the Congress, and how utterly impos
sible it was for them to bestow that time
and deliberation upon the formation of
the Constitution that its great importance
required. Indeed, the examination of
the journals connected with the conside
ration of these circumstances,, must satis
fy every impartial mind, that the fraraers
of the Constitution only intended it as a.
temporary work one that the people
would examine, alter and amend, when
the troubles of war would pass away, and
the sunshine of peace be restored. But
grant for a moment, that the Congress of
Halifax designed this as a permanent Con
stitution, then we must recur to still other
circumstances to shew how next to im
possible it was for them to form j a Con
stitution that would suit the future condi
tion of the State. The same feelings that
now are called Eastern and jftstern,
then, and long before, existed in the Pro
vince of North-Carolina. If they existed
among jhe people, it.is reasonable to pre
sume that they were not absent from the
Congress of Halifax. Indeed the jour
nals of lhat body furnish, oioofs of the
fact. In the several Congresses before
change the mode so as that each individ
ual member should have one vote,
this proposition every jWestern County
voted. Against it, none but the smallest
counties in the East votfed. . In the Con
gress lhat adopted the Constitution
counties wtre represented ; of ihese, on
ly ten were Western : All that wide
range of country lying west of It areighj retained the practice. Thi therf is a
was then divided only into ten' counties. I relic from the old colonial system : but Sir,
l hat Douv being thus composed, suppose
that an efloi t had been made to fix the
principles of teprcsentatiji po otherti4a'
sis than the present, what would have
been the result ? The same feeling that
will influence members on these resolu
tions would have put it down : the vote
in all probability, would have been 26
against 10.
These, Sir, said, Mr. F. were the cir
cumstances' under which .our State Gov
ernment was formed ; and this accounts
for the features of aristocracy that appear
throughout-the Constitution. In fact,
tew indeed werti the alterations that the
Constitution made in the then existing
laws and polity of the Province ; even
the names were retained. The judicial
department was but little altered : and
the
Legislature
not much more, except
.1... .1 .! t,Tt f "
mar insieaa oi ine nouse or nurgess-
ses," the popular branch is called " theUlalwn alone is taken ; for that is the onlv
House of Commons." a name as appro-
pnate for this branch, as the House of
Lords would be for the Senate. The
ijeneral Assembly was the term by which
the Legislature was called, under the Pro -
vinciai uovernment, and it is retained in
tne constitution. . ine quanncauon oi
fifty acres of landj and the representation
by counties', were taken from the laws ofj
the Province. In short. Sir, the Piovin-
cial laws and customs were the materials!
out of which the Constitution was' built,
and the Constitution is but little more
than a compilation from these materials.
And this is a monument of wisdom that
we ace told it is sacrilege to touch ! Sir,
it is right to reverence the work ol our
forefathers but its being their work does
not make it perfect: like ourselves, they
were erring men ; nordojl hold vith the
maxim of the k Holy Alliance," that
whatever is ancient is good." Even ad
mitting that the Constitution was the best
for the times in which it was made, sure
its framersj were rfbt political prophets to
forsee that it could .suit equally well the
conditions of future generations.
Fhe old Congress, said Mr. . F. lhat
framed the articles of Confederation, the
first American Government, was a body
of men never surpassed for waimth of
patriotism, clearness of intelligence, and
i 1
force of sagacity ; and yet Sir, these men,
with all their wisdom and foresight, for
med a government that in a few years be
gan to tumble to pieces; to save our
infant republic, a new Convention was
called, anfl a new .Ccmsution wast adop
ted- How is it then t.iut the sages of
the old Congress failed in their first gov
ernment, and that the Congress of Hali
tax, should, at once have reached the
point of perfection ! It is not so :- our
Constitution is full of defects; and I will
,
now proceed to point out some of them
To dwell upon all the defects of the
Constitution said Mr. F. would require
more time, than he could at present com
mand. He .would, therefore, only take
up a part, - and leave a wide field, for his
friends to occupy.
Of all the objectionable parts of our
Constitution, tht system of representa
tion is the most unjust and oppressive.
Upon this, said he, I shall confine my re
marks; and, for the sake of being better
understood. I shall consider. 1st. The
representation of the people, dly. The
representaiiqn of the property ; for the
theory of the Constitution seems to be,
the representation of the people in one
branch of the Legislatnre, and of prop
erty in the other.
1st. Then as to the representation of
the people. And here be it said, that in
practice, the people are not represented
at, all. It is not the people, in the true
meaning, it is the countiesi that are rep
resented. Tf the people were repie
sented, numbers would form the basis of
the systeoi. The counties are as much
represented in this House as he States
are in the Jjenate of the U. States; but not
upon the same principles, or j with the
same propriety. The States are distinct
sovereignties, and it is by compromise
that they all have an equal 'eightwin the
Senate of the Federal Legislature; not
so as regards the counties, i here is not
a greater disparity between the population
of Rhode Island and New-York, than
there is between Columbus and Rowan :
and yet, in that branch of the federal
Legislature where the people are repre
sented. Rhqde-Island hnd only two mem
bers vhen ISew-York has twenty-seven :
- ; a relative part of the whole, put the coun
tori ties, as a kind ol sepiarate gov
, ernments, that are represented; The
biiginal of this feature in the) Constitution
- will be seen, when it is remembered that
36 J counties in the first settlement of the pro-
- 1 vince, were separate ami distinct govern-
ments we have altered the theory but
I come trom where, it may, it is a
1 -system under the onerationrif which, oiir
State government. ha4 ceased to be a Re
public, and becomes a comp
ete and per-
feet aristocracv. What is art
anstocracyy
but where thefeto govern the many?
is it not essential in a Kepub
icthat the
citizens of the same grade iff
qualification
should have an equal participation in the
rights and privileges of the government ?
and that a majority shall! rule ? No
government where these principles
absent, can merit the name of a Republi-
v.uii guvtrimueiu , uno, oir, it win not De
difficult to prove that this is the case under
our Constitution. To show that it is. said
Mr. F. I ask your attention to a few cal
culations bottomed on the last Census.
and on the revenue laws of the State.
. . .
Let me here premise, that in all calcula
m . I
l .vn .A - k .1 r.
'i"uc un population, me Tree ooou-
population entitled to representation un-
der the Constitution ; and, when gentle
men are contending for the oerfection of
ina instrument, they surely will not wish
1 to assume data not recognised by ii.
Slaves are not leittn our Legislature, el-
i -",cl.a popuiauon or as property; and
j where calculations are made to shew the
operation of the system, we must confine
ourselves to the provisions of that system.
Mr. F. said he made these remarks, be-
cause some gentlemen may Kvish to as
su me the federal numbers as the data of
calculations an assumption which she
could not admit.
View I. The State is divided into 62
counties of very unequal extent and popu-
lauuii, jrci cacn senuicg 10 jne legisla
ture the same number of members -making
in, all 103, including ithe borough
representation. The free population of
me owie is souis, wuicn, divi
ded by the number of members, '. in.the
Legislature gives to each member 2248
souls, or, in other words, jevery 2248
souls, upon principles of eqtfalitv. would
1 be, entitled to one representative. ; Take
this then as tlie ratio of one memberfand
how will the resnlt appear ?-i Why ! The
counties of Washington, Jones, Greene,
Chowan, Columbus and Brunswick, each
would be entitled to one member, while,
upon the same calculation, Ft o wan would
obtain 9 and Orange 7 members. But
take the free population of Greene or
Washington, as the ratio that shall send
3 members ; and, then, eacji of the little
counties just named will rejtain their 3
members, while Rowan will send 27,
Orange 32, and the other large counties,
tn due proportion.
View II. To the 6 counties! just named,
add lyrrell, Martin,' Lenoir, Hyde,
Gates and Carteret, making twelve coun
ues. j nese twelve counties contain a
population of 38,037 souls, wlfile Rowan
and Orange contain 37,967 nearly the
same amount; but these tvre, ye countrer,
send 36 members, and Rowan and Or
ange only 6, exclusive of the borough re
preserttation.' View III. We have seen that twelve
small counties contain 38,037 souls ; con
trast this with the population of twelve
large counties, viz : Rowan,; Orange,
Lincoln, Guilford, Mecklenburg, Stokes,
Rutherford, Burke, Iredell,! Randolph,
Surry and Wake, with a population of
156,726. Thus 38,037 sou s in certain
small counties, sei.d as many members to
the Legislature as 1 56,726 sduls, existing
in a like number of large cbnnties the
twelve larger counties contain 118,689
souls more than the twelve slmaller ones.
View IV. . The counties Of Washing
ton, Jones, Greene, Chowanj Brunswick,
Columbus, Tyrell Martin, Lenoir, nyqe,
Gates, Carteret, Ashe, Beaufort, bladen,
Bertie, Camden, Currituck, Franklin,
Hertford, Haywood, Moore, Northamp
ton, Nash, NeV-Havover, Onslow, Pitt,
Pasquotank, Perquimmons, Warren,
Wayne, Person and. Richmond, in nura
hpr5!3. rantain 14428 soul. JUSt about
one-third of the free ipopultion of the
. - ! , .ut-u '
Siar. vet thev send 99 members,. which .
is a majoriiv ui nx- . -
Does it no't plainly appeaj-, from -this
view of the subiecu that one-tlard of the
population of the State completely gov-
ern anrl rnniroi IUC vmri ini.....
What is this but aristocrary The few
governing the many . ; one third contro-
iinrr twwhirds making all
inena tp-
pointing all the officers, judicial, execu
tivm and militurv ? "'Attain:! the eleven
- viz. 144,041 souls; but these are entitled
- ! only to 33 members, or 66 less than
I what che same amount of population, in
another part of the State, is entitled to.
is this, said xMr. F.
rrw.. i 1S tuts giving to the citt
zens of different sections of the State an
equal participation in the lights and privi
leges of the government ? Surelnot.'
But perhaps this system has its paliatives f
Since we have not Vn equal voice In mak-,
ing the laws and appointing the officers
for their execution, perhaps by way of
atonement, we are exempted from bear
ing an equal share of the burdens of the
State ? No. sir, we pay our full share of
taxes, and, in times of danger, we furnish
our full, quota for the public defence
mm irftnicnt i r .
i i
Yes, we are taxed by population but
we are represented by Counties. What
would gentlemen say, were we to propose
as a law, that each county in the Stat
should pay the same amount of the Taxes
into the Treasury, and in times of war,
that each county should furnish the same
number of men for defence? We Would
soon be stunned by the cries of injustice !
injustice: ina, sir, where would there
be any thing more unjust or oppressive in
this, than that each county should have
the same share in making the laws! But
let us see the'proportion of taxes paid by
some of the counties, in comparison with
that paid oy others. 1 he counties of
Columbus, Carteret, Currituck, Akhe.
Tyrrel, Washington, Hay wood j Hyde
Brunswick, and Moore, ten. in 'number.
in the year 1819' from all the sources of
taxation, as returned by the Sheriffs, paid
into tne Treasury 4,193 85: while.
Rowan and Orange themselves paid with
in a fraction of 5,000 But noihinz
more strikingly exposes, the injustice of
our system of representation, than the
fact, that there are a 'number of small
counties that do not furnish ta'x-s enough ,
to pay the wages of their own members.
J he counties of Currituck, Columbus,
Carteret, Ashe, Tyrell, Hyde and uay.
wood, in the year 1819, paid into the
Treasury 2,609, and for the same year
their members drew out 3,441, or $834
more than was paid into the Treasury;
Again: for 4ie year 1820,
Taxes paid into Pay drawn out
tne .treasury
by Mevujtrs.
Hyde,
$407 24
$466 90
435 40.
530
449 80
383 30
468
J72 80
Tyrell
Haywood
Carteret
Columbus
Currituck
Ashe
384 29
245 87
406 09
345 55
460 62
259 77
$3,20610 $2,50943
From this sum of $2,509 43 deduct .
$168 50 repaid to the Sheiifis of those
sCounties for mileage in attending to make
settlement, and you have the sum of
$2,340 93. as the amount paid into the '
Treasury for that year ; while the mem
bers drew out the sum of $3,206 19, or
$865 17, exceeding the amount of their
taxes. The proportion of each county,
the expenses of the! judicial and executive
branches -of the government, is aboui'
$4 65 annually; which added to the.
$865 17 makes these seven counties an
annual expense to the State of $4,120
over and above their taxes. At tins rate,
from the taking of the census in 1820 td
1830, when another enumeration will
take place, they will have cost the Trea
sury beyond their taxes, the um of
$41,000, a sum not very far short of the
whole amount of the taxes of the last year
on lands and slaves. Now, sir, i thre
any thing just or equitable in a systeni
that operates in this manner ? It is not
enough that we must permit tht S'. small
counties to equal powers with jthe larger
ones. Must we actually pay them for
making laws for us?
' I shall, now, said Mr. F. leave this
part of the subject, and proceed to the
next braoch of it the repreuentatum of
property. It is a principle now utnver- .
sally acknowledged, that property ougnt
to be felt in the councils of the govern
ment: tint to have a predominating influ
ence, but a proportionate weight. One
of the great objects in establishing gov
ernment is for the protection of property,
and nine-tenths of all taxes that supp tt
government are raised dirt ctly or indi
rectly from
property. It isthen nothing
justice and good j'ohcy tint
more than
itiorc man justice anu tjwj
. . n
relative representation iif the council ot
the Stated Is this the case under cut)
Constitution ? Is the eight 1 pt Pp."
graduated and' represented s it' ought t
be? Certaiuly not. Due specitn ui
property only is i epresented, vi z Ui d
and the land-holders hae dwbl
weight in the Legijiatuie,;that poptl j u
arid every species of property put toeta
ii
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