....... ( - ' -rum i&rirr - :
cm three aays huw
Peace in Orange Coun-
LE6JSI.ATIVE DEBATES.
tSENATEThckbdat, Dec. 7.
Bellowing resolution bfferelt oy Mr. Gilmer,
pVeBteVdaj, being pnder consideration, vlx:
- . - . Tt. in f hp ease of the
.nieS3et7ction pending before this body, be-
tween Messrs yauueu
.ft-.. k tatrevn.
tj 'njtteL father. That all depositions here.
hftex taken before a Justice of the Peace m said
County, with ten days n ice given under the
Berolutioiur first adopted t the case, ahajl be read,
Jf iH other yeapecta competent.
Mr. fioer had commenced a speech, in which
be was Interrupted and called to order.
The Chair decided that a review of the .acta,
circumstance, and incident in regard to tb con
wtar. o?aa out of order
Mr. Bower remarked that the scope of bis 1 re
tnarks was to show, in a few words, what effect
S resolutions Were calculated to have upon the
S?h5Tthe sitting member, and be bad no dea.re
Mate the Rulfs of order. He merely obser
Ted that these resolutions were intended to af.
feet the ruing Member. We were told I yeaier
dar. that the former resolutions did not eflect the
object had in view in their passage. He would
not make any charge-but suppose no depositions
have yet been, taken, what will be the result 1
To-morrow the sitting member may receive
notice that the .contesting party will proceed in
three days to take depositions, of the nature ot
which be is ignorant. And before he can make
arrangements to be present, either in person, or
bv attorney, to attend to it, the evidence may be
taken ; and, until he knows what it is, he will
have no opportunity to seek for other testimony
to rebut what may be offered. ....... .
Mr. Thomas, of Davidson, deemed it Ins duty to
trouble the Senate with a few remarks. He de
sired to be brief, and, according lo his understand
ing, the matter could be explained in a very few
What is the case before the Senate 1 He
tained we shall be unable to repair. Suppose
t lu?uout. after inquiring, that; majority
oVKgal vote, have been given to the conts
tant what wrong shall we not have done, by post
ining the decision, not merely to the people of
KSunty of Orange, but to the whole people
of the State of North Carolina ? Especialhr so,
Sir, if inithe meantime we shall have disposed oU
large share of the business of the eason.and made
the important Elections, devolving upon thia U.
gislatuVe, by the vote of one who is not entitled
fo his seat ! It may be, that in, these matters,
there inot merely a failure to reflect the popu.
lar sentiment of Orange, but an ef'
sent.tion of it. The possibility that this wrong
mav be done by our action, demands of us the
eUiest practicable settlement of this contest
It is alike doe to the people of Orange to the
entire State to ourselves, that no unnecessary
delay be allowed. ....
It is cot mv purpose, m any wise, to judge tne witu
mprit. of this case, in supporting the resolutions three
" w - - w - m . '
the legal Toters of bis county; and to express his
very great surprise, that his seat should fee contest
ed One election, be had said; waadwcovBred to be
invalid. Jbecause of certain idiihc iu m. reiuru,
and tne ceruncaie in vh'"'-'
to the
wrong man putting it in the power of the contea-
. . 1 nnlhpr elMinn vw.. then
i ant 10 s:ep 01m uw - . Y
held, and he had again received a majority of the
legal votes. Ail this was wholly irrelevant, and iu
the estimation of Mr. L. highly ImprTUtr
was no design on the part of Mr. u or his friends,
to do the Senator injustice, but there- e s;4oubt
whether he had a right to be heard arallioa ques
tion conceroins Jia seat in that ambefc He can
not sit here as a judge in his owrcnBeoorcan he
be heard as an advocate until the issui is made
up. What, air, is this great injustice"? Why,
simply this, that after adopting a resolution re
quiring the contestant to give the sitting member
ten days notice of the time and place of taking de
positions, we now propose, in order to expedite the
investigation, to allow the sitting memberlto proceed
ma testimony, upon giving tne cuniesiunv uujy
day's notice; and this is termed injustice
before the Senate. 1 know nothing of the facts. Sir, if any injustice is done, it is to the contestant.
tooi-ds. What is the case Derore
held it to be' a question in regard to the time to
ie given within which evidence may be taken.
New what is tne history of the. facts ? Did not
the gentleman from Guilford at first propose that
evidence should be taken on Jive days' notice, and
was not the time extended, at the request of the
friends of the sitting member, from five to ten '
And is it here to be argued, that in a case of time
for notice to be given by either party, it is only to
concern Mr Waddell T He thought not. It was
clear to him, as the notice originally proposed
was only five days, and as the friends of the sit
ling member desired ten, it was surely not for
the benefit of Mr. Waddell. Now is this to be
an ex parte proceeding ! Surely not. In this
Cbnrt and Senate this matter niusi be settled
jupon jt merits. There is or should be.jiQno here
who would let his private feelings enter inTo this
subject. The eyes of the Country, all cars, are
open to this proceeding ; and if we should urge
our feelings on this subject, the individual or
party who should dare to do so, would be wors
ted. He held that the time granted by the first
resolution was unnecessary, but it was not asked
for by the Senator from Guilford it was increas
d to ten days by the suggestion of the other side.
Uut each have had the benefit of it. Can the
sitting member do nothing 1 The ten days wab
given for the benefit of each, and it was bis duty
to get the evidence. If he has failed to do so,
who is responsible ! By a continuance of such a
system, when can the contestant get a hearing ?
At the coming session there might be a proba
fcility of it but certainly not during the present
Legislature. Mr. T. said it seemed to him the
whole matter ought to be speedily settled. The
flrst ten days had been given to each party ; and
now ought not the time to be red uced ? A proper
time, and reasonable time, is all that can be ask
Mr. Smith said, the Senator from Ashe and
'others who oppose the resolutions under consider
ation, from their remarks, appear to me entirely
to misconceive the purpose of the rule which re
quires a reasonable previous notice to be given
of the time and place appointed for taking deposi
tions. The object is hot, as they seem to suppose, to
secure a benefit fo the party taking the deposi
tions, but to the party against whom they are to
he used. It is to give the latter a fair opportuni
ty 10 oe present, in peron or ny agent, ana to
subject the witness to the cross examination ne
cessary in the investigation of truth.
The resolutions offered by the Senator from
Guilfordiras I understand them, involve no unfair
advantage to either of the parties to this contro-
tersy. They allow depositions to be taken on
shorter notice than is required under the resolu
tions heretofore adopted by the Senate; they pro
vide merely that evidence may be hereafter taken
by either party at three daya notice ; they confine
neither to those reduced limits, nor prescribe that
as the time within which the depositions must be
taken-: C)n the contrary, either may extend it to
enable him to make all the preparations he may
find needful. Bat as a precaution against sur
prise, the resolutions declare that the party a
gainst whom the evidence is to be taken shall
hate not less than three days . previous notice of
the time and place.
The reduction of the time, therefore, from ten
to three days, as now proposed, can be only pre
judicial, if to any one, to the contestant himself.
The sitting member has already had the benefit
f the longer notice, and will be permitted to pro
ceed with his own evidence on giving the shorter
nouce 10 nis opponent, a result, at least, not open
to complaint by him.
The Senator from Ashe is also mistaken, if he
supposes, that thirty days notice is prescribed by
the provisions of the existing law, before taking
depositions in contested Elections. The law re
quires, in regard to Elections, held at the usual
ttme for members of the General Assembly, that
the person intending to dispute the right of one,
who has the certificate of Election, to his seat,
shall give him thirty days notice of thai intention
previous to the meeting of the Assembly. But
the very same sectjoj) ReySu Ch.52, Sec.-8i)
expressly direct the notice in taking depositions
to be given, that is required in taking depositions
at law. And 't, :
10 wie iiuuce rrquireu in ac-
i!?n w ' Bv reference to the 70th section of
u 9naPler of lbe Rev. Statues, it wilt be seen,
that the notice required is for three days, where
the party notified does not reside more than ten
miles from the place of taking the depositions,
with an additional day for every additional ten
miles distance.
This is the rule which has been found convo
( tiient and proper (in the absence of any special
order,) in judicial proceeding, and it is also idon
ted m ordinary contested Elections, which are
analogous to them.
Why should the time be enlarged in-the ease
of the preaent SpeciaKElection, as it has been
under the resolution heretofore passed 4 What
consideration are there, public or personal, to
induce ns to deviate in that direction, from a rule,
tttstMd fair in itself, and which prevails, under
Igfe.aue sanction where the public interest and
the parties concerned are neither liable to be
prejudiced by delay 1
vr . oow, strong reasons as they
txm$ the time of notice, if it can be done in thia
case, without iniarv to the
!,. iul v ' '. r . ' ""j
v" V l" "so.-01 meir case in nnnecesear ily
deferred mav prove but the repetition f an act of
MjUBwce iw me Bcnmonai const iluency of the dis
trict ;T an, mjastice, should it bo hereafter aeccr-
nor of the principle which they may involve.
Whenever the case comes properly before us, I
trust we shall all be prepared to give it a dispas
sionate consideration and to decide it without
reference to political effects.
It is however our duty to urge it to an early
settlement, that, we may be sure we have upon
this floor that individual, whoever he may be,
whom a majority of . the qualified voters have
elected. . .
Ten days have already elapsed. The sitting
member has had notice, for that space, of the
time when, his opponent's evidence would be ta
ken, a space sufficient to euable him lo make
some progress, at least, in preparing his own case.
It certainly is not the fault of this body, if that
time has been wholy tnisimproved. The session
is rapidly passing away. No injury can, I think,
result to either of the parties by reducing the no
lice as proposed by the Senator from Guilford,
while it is calculated greatly to facilitate and has
ten the settlement of the controversy. We
should not therefore, by any action of ours, post
pone, without cause, the decision of a question
delay in settling which may defeat the will of the
people in a matter in which they have so deep in
interest. I hope therefore the resolutions may
pass. I !
Mr. Berry said if these resolutions were adopt
ed, they were calculated to irfflict on him great
injustice. Why did he say so? Because Mr.
Waddell had already had a monih to collect testi
mony. A month'had elapsed since the election,
and Mr. Waddell has known all that time of h
purpose to contest his seat. This purpose he
had concealed and he (Mr. B.) had to wait un
til his purpose was made known to him and he
was not aware, until the day he set off here, of
any purpose to contest his seat ; and he then ap
plied to the sheriff, if his seat was to be contested.
to make out a list ot the poll docks, 10 see wtiere
The sittinsr member has the right under the resolu
tion, to select bis own time tor giving tne notice, ana
then call on the contestant to meet him in three days ;
and I cannot conceive why opposition td this resolu
tion, should come from that quarter, except ror tne
purpose of delay. Sir, if the Senator ift8Q very con
fident that he has been returned oy a nwjoruy 01
the legal voters of the connty of Orang "why does
he not, instead of endeavoring to throw obstacles in
the way of this investigation, meet it boldly and
promptly ? We now tender him this resolution.
That the matter may be expedited, we propose at
the risk of doing injustice to the contestant, to re
duce the time of notice to three days. If either par
ty should desire an extension of the time.-upon pro
per cause shown to the Senate, by affidavit, Mr. L.
had no doubt but the extension would be cheerfully
E1 .... .. J .
Mr. u. concluded by appealing waenaiors to uis
card all personal considerations-to act vs became
the Representatives of a free people-to enter upon
this investigation with the determination Iq do jus
tice between the parties, regardless of thf advance
ment of the interest of this or that political party.
And if it should turn out upon a fair aihd impar
tial investigation of the case, that the sitting mem
ber is entitled to his seat, Mr. L. would b& the last
to disturb him in the exercise of rights, guaranteed
by the constitution, and delegated to him by a ma
jority of his people. . '
Mr. Walker agreed with the Senator from Row
an, that we should go into this investigation with
cool aess and deliberation, for Which purpose, ample
time should be extended to both parties. iThis time
had been accorded to tbe coutestant; and at this
late period, when Mr. Waddell has prepared his
testimony, it now asked that the time shall be re
duced, and it has become extremely important to
bring the case to a close. W hat notice had been serv
ed on the Senator from Orange ? He received notice
that Waddell would proceed to take the testimony
of the Sheriff and others, and when he wants time
to hunt up his own evidence, then comesj this reso
lution to reduce the time. How was tne sitting
he must apply for his. testimony ; but lie list ever member to meet the case, until he knew; what the
camei until yesterday ; it was handed him, while
theses proceedings were going on. wow our.
Waddell bad been engaged an entire month in
collecting his evidence, while under the first
resolution, as he understood it, either party was
only allowed ten days notice- He had no wish
to gain time except that the case should be fairly
investigated and time extended to collect the evi
dence, lie had no wish to delay the progress of
the case; all he wanted was justice. And what
sort of notice had he received 1 The notice had
set forth no names it set forth that the deposi- I (The chair called Mr. W. to order.) He would
ease was? -Ha, had waMtAJld see, the
testimony made by Mr. Waddell, and we are now
asked to shorten the time of notice from ten days to
three. Suppose the si tune member should take 7
or 10 days to hunt up his testimony would not Mr.
Waddell's friends attempt to press a trial? If it
took so much time for the contestant, could the sit
ting member be expected to give notice anjd procure
his evidence in three d.iys time ? What course had
Mr. Waddell pursued?. When in August last he
knew that Mr. Berry would contest his seat he
falls back unon the people a new election ordered
tion of the sheriff and others would be taken.
Until he knew what the testimony was, how was
he to prepare evidence to rebut it ? He had been
advised that it was not important to hunt evidence
but had empowered an agent to go to day to at
tend to the taking of despositions. He had no-
disposition to prolong this contest he was anx
ious togo immediately into the investigation, and
h4) had no fears, if the case were decided upon
its merits. It was alleged here yesterday, that
one of the Commissioners had refused to act ; of
this he had no intelligence, and no proof bad been
offered. It was true, a suggestion had been
made that the commissioners be named because
they iwere more accustomed to such business
and he had no information that one of them bad
declined ; though it was probably so, and another
must oe appointed in his place. If this resolution
passed, gross injustice would be done him. All
he asked was a fair investigation.
Mr. Utlmer said, before tbe question was ta
ken, he wished to raise a question of order, under
tne lustrnction 01 the Speaker, whether Mr- Berry
had a right to vote ? And he -would give notice,
it the speaker oecided against him, that at a pro
per time be would raise the question of order.
If it was the pleasure of the Speaker he would
now proceed to explain bis views.
The Chair ordered the roll to be called, with
the approbation of the Senate. The Speaker I gentleman from Guilford was ifcthe sitting mem
appeal to gentlemen, in all candor, would they force
. 1 1 . 1 - :. : l:.
me Silling menuer i lac ueccsaitr, vi procuring Uis
evidence in so short a time, since Mr. Waddell and
his friends had had full time. He noticed a nieet-
inglufceen held, and a committee of 12 appointed
to collect testimony. (Here the Chair again called
Mr. W. to order.) He was very sorry to transgress
the rules but we coald not even begin the case.
and ought to wait till the proper time. He hoped
gentlemen would be willing to extend the name time
to Mr. Berry that they had to sar. waaaeu. tie
beeeed them to be generous just give ten days no
tice, and he was satisfied so far &S the rest j was con
cerned. The sitting member has the right to repre
sent the people of Orange if he is denied the right
the people of Orange will have no voice here. It
important that the voice of every Ca unthr in the
State should be heard, and that none should be sti
fled. If we denied the right or Orange, her voice
would have no weight in the Legislature. -
M r. Lillingtou said :
The gentleman from Mecklenburg saya Chat there
is now exhibited a disposition among the friends of
the contestant, to press this investigation with great
haste, although they were not originally so dispos
ed ; and be seems to think that we ought to be wil
ling to give at least ten daya notice. Whatever ad
miration Mr. L. might have for the reasoning pow
ers of the gentleman from Mecklenburg, he conr
fessed he hud but Utile confidence, in the accuracy
of his recollection. Tha original proposition of the
remarked that the chair could not know, certain
ly, whether the member will offer to vote or not.
We understood the Hon. Speaker as reserving ihe
pointfor future decision.
Mr. Thompson, of Wake, said it was his pur
pose 10 vote against the resolutions : and he would
assign, in a few words, his reasons He was con
fident that no one on that floor had a stronger
wisnmai a mr, candid, and thorough investiga
tion of this case should be made, than himself.
Nor W3s any person more disposed to go into the
business and despatch it, than himself. It had
Deen urged, mat it we do not fro speedily into
this case, gross injustice would be done to Mr
Waddell, if it shall be found that he is entitled
to the seat instead of Mr. Berry and this gross
injustice was arsued here as a reason why we
should proceed with despatch. To meet this ar
gument, he would say, if Mr. Berry is pushed
rapidly into this investigation, . without a fair op
portunity to procure evidence,- without a fair
opportunity to seek for witnesses, he would ask,
would not gross injustice be done to Mr. Berry,
and Orange counfy ? By the former resolution
ten day's notice was not too much. Well, he
would a6k gentlemen, in all candor, how it was
presumed, after Mr. Waddell's depositions were
taken, the sitting member would have an oppor
tunity to get his rebutting testimony ? That he
must canvass the couaty xX Orange, 40 miles?
square, anu nuni eviaence in tnree days, to have
justice done him, seems unreasonable. As such,
ber should have five days notice ut at the special
request of his friends, the time was extended to ten
days. If it was a great hardship then, to bare to
hear testimony on five days notice, he considered
that it was as as great a hardship hear testimony
on three. The time was extended to ten days as a
favor to the sitting member. What sort ef reason
ing is this? The remarks of the gentleman satisfied
Mr. L. that his reasoning was no better than his re
collection. Why these resolutions should; work a
hardship on the sitting member, he could. sot con
ceive, t
The sitting member we are informed, has had ad-
rice on his case, and has thought proper not to pro
ceea wun nis testimony, oureiy xor tnis we were
not to blame. When we, propose to expedite this
matter, by giving only three days notice, the rule is
reversed anu wnat at nrst was a great flavor, be
comes all at once a great hardship. The leffect of
the opposition to these resolutions is to produce de
lay. There is no good reason why, after tbjsittiug
member has had ample time allowed him to prepare
his case, the contestant should not -have thelrigbt to
reduce the notice to three days especially when the
sitting member is not compelled to gire thenotice at
any particular time. ,
The gentleman from Mecklenbursr. had; utterlv
failed to satisfy him that any injustice would be in
flicted upon the sitting member. It is complete
mockery, if after allowing him ted days, we suffer
mm 10 ne on nis oars, tauc out or the record, descant
upon irrcvalent matters,, holding oafromJ the in
vestigation lit erally doing nothingnt evade the is
sue. If we suffer him to get un these discussions
?Um fMr. TO r,oab.e .d Hhl & SrXZAjt'YT
that he should have at least ten days in order to
nave an opportunity to hunt his evidence. Mr. T.
hoped the Senate would be disposed to do ample
justice to both parties engaged in this controver
sy. It was now objectedthat the Senator from
Orange should vote upon this resolution. Why
was it not made a few days ago ? The Senator
had voted then and who objected? No one.
Why were the gentlemen silent who now ob
ject 1 If right then, it was right that he should
voie now and the objection seemed to him en
tirely cut of place now.
Mr. Lillington said : The Senator fenm n...
had made tbe remark, that the esolution offered by
his friend from Guilford, was calculated fo do bim
lujusuce, anu ne naa more tkin intimated that such
was the purpose of tbe mover.
Mf- Berry did not intend to impute any such pur
pose.! He said, if the resolutions were passed, they
were; calculated to do him gross injustice.
The Speaker remarked, that he did not understand
the gentleman from Orange as imputing any such
motives, or he would have called him to order.
whether as designed, or as a necessary consequence
of the passage of these resolutions, he would ask if
the gentleman had not been treated with ereat in
dnlgence on yesterday, when, clearly out of order
oa aaurewed the Senate on the merit nf.fci
case.
vra,a ueriuiLifHi vtinnni
asSert that he had been sent 17
the law in relation to contested elections? It miirht
as well be expunged from the Statute book?
Before a decision can be had, all the important
measures of legislation will have been acted on, and
the people of Orange, if misrepresented, might as
wen lie down nnder the grievance. Sir, if Justice
is to be done, to be effective, it must be done
speedily. 5
Mr. Walker was mnch obliged to the geptleman
from Rowan for his sympathy: But he recollected
very well how the ten days were granted. 4 He ac
knowledged it was proposed bv the friends: of Mr.
Berry, and cheerfully accepted, as a benefit con
ferred on both sides but now when Mr. Waddell
has enjoyed the benefit, and it is about to aeue to a
sitting member, we are asked to abridge the notice
down to three days. His recollection was altfut as
correct as the gentleman's. If the coat est tat and
his friends have enjoyed the benefit of ten days, he
appealed to their magnanimity to extend ten days o
the sitting member to their generosity to grant
them bat this, and they would be content.-- '
Mr. Shepard rose to make a raggetion. He did
not wish to do the sitting member aey injustice.
m.oat1bjre?-ia-ha therefore
suggested t0 h,8 friend from Guilford, icWs Wh
resolution s. to compel the comrnittee to 6r?en
a certain day say the lth of this mohtnToHhe 13th
fl;Tflry; , H' toere,y threw the snSilon-his
friends could make what use of it theyumed pro-
Mr. Gilmer would readily vote for a mention
fixing a time. His resolution only proposed to ac
celerate the proceedings so that the case may come
to a trial within reasonable time.
The Chair suggested, to avoid confusion, that the
gentleman from Guilford should make his point of
order now. If he desired it, the Chair would hear
his argument.
. Mr. Gilmer said he desired to be brief ; as he was
anxious that this mauer should be disposed -of to
day. He considered the right to hold a seat on this
floor, as an office, and more than an office, beciuse
a member can-hold no other office of trust or profit
in North Carolina. It is a franchise a privilege
personal to him who holds it, to which emoluments
are Attached, and the privilege of freedom from ar
rest No member had the privilege of voting on a
question in which he had a direct personal interest
It is true there is nothing in our Rules to forbid it
which are few in number our Rules of Order
would not exclude such a vote. But we are not gov
erned only by our Rules of Order. A variety of
questions arise here, upon which the Speaker must
decide, and concerning which he finds nothing in
our rules of order to guide his decision. Suppose a
motion is made to divides proposition, and the ques
tion arises whether it is susceptible of division,- the
Speaker does not decide it by the authority of our
rules. So iu casa A ofiers one amendment, B an
amendment to the amendment, and C a third amend
ment. The Chair decides C out of order and if
called on for his authority, he must resort to imme
morial custom, and parliamentary law and usage.
Suppose a resolution should be before the House,
which makes a direct appropriation of money to a
Senator, and a question of order arises. The Chair
decides that it is not right that he should vote in his
own case. Where does he get his authority ? Sup
pose a call of the House is ordered ; a member rises
and declares there is no authority for the call.
The Speaker would decide that there was ; but he
would not find it in the ordinary rules. So in va
rious other cases. A member speaks of what is said
by members of the other House, The Speaker de
cides that he is out of order, under immemorial par
liamentary law. Suppose in debate, we address a
member by name, instead of the member from such
a county it is a violation of parliamentary law,
calculated to excite irritation, disturbance, and pro
duce confusion. Those few rules we are in the hab
it of adopting, for our government, called rules of
order, do not abrogate the ancient parliamentary
law; and the Chair is bound by the law if not,
nothing in our rules of order would apply to a va
riety of cases which may occur.
Mr. Gilmer then read from Jefferson's Manual,
under the head, " Order and Debate
" No member may be present when a bill or any
business concerning himself is debating; nor is any
member to sneak to the merits of it till he with
draws." 2 Hats. 210.
' The rule is, that if a charge against a member
arise out of a report of a committee, or examination
of witnesses in the house, as the member knows from
that to what points he is to direct his exculpation,
he may be heard to those points, before any ques
tion is moved or stated against bim. He is then to
be heard, and withdraw before any question is mov
ed. But if the question itself is the charge, as for
breach of order, or matter arising in the debate,
then the charge must be stated ; that is, the ques
tion must be moved, himself heard, and then to with
draw. 2 Hats. 121, 122.
u When the private interests of a member are con
cerned in a bill or question, be is to withdraw. And
where such an interest has appeared, his voice has
been disallowed even after a decision. In a case so
contrary, not enly to the laws of decency, but to the
fundamental principle of tbe social compact, which
denies to any man to be a judge in his own cause, it
is for the honor of the house, that this rule, of im
memorial observance, should be strictly observed."
2 Hats. 119, 121. 6 Gray. 368.
These are all the doctrines he found in Jefferson's
Manual upon this point ; and if this is authority go
verning the action of this House, it is clear that
the sitting member could not vote upon this question.
The Senate would surely be badly governed, if there
were no other rules to govern its action than our
ordinary rules of order. For suppose that a man
should come, here inflamed or enraged, and insult
the Speaker, or assault him in his Chair. On the
question of his arrest, who could insist that he would
have a right to vote on that question, or any issue
growing out of it? would any Senator on this floor
rise and insist that he should be allowed to vote, be
cause he was the Representative of a free people?
Or that the people would be without a Representa
tive if bis vote were lost ? It would be contrary to
all our notions of jurisprudence, and the principles
regulating fair and impartial trinls.
A decision made here, that a member can vote on
a question 'directly affecting himself, and by which
he might hold Lis seat, by means of his own vote,
would present for consideration to the public mind,
that which would not readily subside. These, how
ever, are my views, and whether right er wrong,
they are submitted with due deference to the better
judgment of the Speaker.
Mr. Walker said, if he understood the case, where
Committee reported against a member, and the
member was pat upon his trial, it would be his duty
to withdraw But here, the member was not upon
his trial, no report of a Committee has been made;
tbe Senate does not sit in judgment upon his case
we are ouly prescribing rules under which testimo
ny is to be taken; and could not see why it was pro
posed to deprive the legal member of his right to
vote. If Mr. Berry was now on bis trial, the case
would be different. But in prescribing rules to
take testimony, he could not perceive why the le
gal member from Orange should not be entitled to
vote.
The Chair would remark, that his attention had
been called to the authority quoted by the gentle
man from Guilford. He viewed it as having refer
ence to a change of an' offence against a member.
The question was well settled, that a member had
no right to vote on the question of retaining his seat ;
and the Chair held it not right that he should vote
upon collateral and preliminary questions affecting
the main question. The Speaker instanced the ques
tion of making tbe Report of the Committee the or
der of the day if the Senator may' vote on that
question, he may vote on retaining his 6eat. He did
not regard the authority quoted by the gentleman
from Guilford as applicable to the case but he was
of opinion that it was hot right for a member whose
seat was contested to vote on collateral questions af
fecting the mam question
Mr. Ashe then submitted a resolution, which the
Chair ruled out of order, unless it was the sense of
the Senate. Mr. Ashe had no disposition to press
it, and withdrew the resolution. "':
Mr. Thompson, of Wake, desired to offer an
amendment, in order to meet the views of Sena
tors. He proposed that if the sitting member
should file an affidavit, under oath, that longer time
than three days is necessary to procure his testi
mony, he shall be allowed such time as he may
deem requisite for that purpose.
Mr. Wood fin said it required no resolution to
determine this matter. On proper affidavit being
made, the Senate would extend the time. The
power exists, and it would be the duty of this
body, in tbe exercise of a sound discretion. The
resolution leaves it discretionary with the party
to have such time as he may deem necessary.
The time will be allowed, as a matter of course,
if the Senate, think proper. But if it is left to
ihe sitting member to apply for such time as be
may require, he may require "six months beyond
the sittiig of the senate. It would notthenbe in
the discretion of the Senate, hut of the sitting
metnber, to allow his case to come on or not.
Te discretion was here, to be allowed in a pro
per way. Ii would never do to depend upon the
mere discretion of the party interested, and lo al
low him just what time be chooses to ask. Mr.
W.did not think he would ask unreasonable time,
but no one should be the judge but the Senate.
This resolution destroys our control over the
casevsnd leaves the discretion with the sitting
member. - '
Mr. Thompson remarked, if objections were
maae 10 ine resolution, he had no objection to mo
dify it. If the-Tttiog member would have it in
his power tobe the iudee, would not the contes
tant have the same privilege? How are we to
ascertain 1 H either party is grieved, bow are
they to have timet
Mr- Wooden. They have ouly to state the
facts. Tbe Senate has the power and the pal.
pable impolicy of passing this resolution is, that it
gives the power to the party.
Mr. Thompson said his only purpose was to
lake no advantage ; to secure an opportunity for
ample justice to,be done in this case. The Sen
ate had a deep interest in this matter, and it was
proper that we should act with credit to our
selves in the judgment of an observing world.
He did not profess to know as much .about this
matter as other legal gentlemen he thought the
resolution lied the time down to three days. If
longer time could be obtained, his end would be
answered and his design secured. There was no
doubt about it.
After a few remarks from Mr. Wood fin,
Mr. Bethel said be would prefer action ; and
would propose to amend the amendment, if in or
der.
Mr. Thompson then modified his amendment,
so as to provide that, if the sitting member shall
file his affidavit he shall be allowed reasonable
time. v -
Mr. Bethel proposed to strike out "reasonable,"
and insert " not exceeding ten days."
Mr. Gilmer suggested, if by either party filing
his affidavit, ten days could be obtained, no dis
c ret ion was left to the Senate.
Mr. Bethel said, if it would make the resolution
less exceptionable, he would modify it so as to
read, Resolved, that if the sitting member "hall re
quire longer time than three days, he shall be al
lowed ten.
Mr. Gilmer said he had no idea of cutting off
the Senate from determining? this question. By
this resolution, without looking at the reasons,
the Senate would be bound to grant the time re
quested. It don't leave the! Senate to judge
and this he says is done to save time.
The question was then taken on Mr. Thomp
son's amendment as modified, when it was re
jected : Yeas 22 ; Nays 24. ; Mr. Berry did not
vote. '
The question then recurred on adopting Mr.
Gilmer's resolutions, when Mr. Ashe called for a
division. The first resolution was then adopted.
Ayes 24 ; Nays 22. The second was also adopt
ed, Yeas 34 ; Nays 13.
Mr. Palmer
Judidary Commit fl
Peace from office for
A message was reSS
muting Resolution?
ted. ''toj
Another message 1
transmitting several rJLJ
JAeelectiifi
On motion of Mr u u- 8. 0
on the table. ''theftS
Mr. T. R. Caldwell n,
the Senate, propSt,0
Mr. Griggs moved uL
table. Lobi. 'phJ
The question recm..-;CaMwell,wu8decS7ul0J
hit nr. . - """TO
relation to an omlmon
Jised Statutes, aH
Court: and also .n:- "eciom7i
nnittft!
I III --r-m-'m lllllll tl--tTr--
I PROCEEDINGS OP OUR J
STATE LEGISLATURE,
Tuesday, December 12, 1848.
SENATE.
Mr. Eborn introduced a tbill to amend the 10th
section of the 102d chapter ef the Revised Statutes,
concerning Pedlars. Referred to the Committee
on the Judiciary.
Mr. Lillington presented the memorial of the Of
ficers of the 63d Regiment of JNorth Carolina Mili
tia, relating to the state of tbe Militia laws. Refer
red to the Committee on Military Affairs.
Mr. Thomas, of Haywood, presented a memorial,
prayinff for a Turnpike Road from Waynesville to
the Tennessee, line: Also, a petition of citizens of
Cherokee, praying for a Turnpike road up tbe Ivan
tihila river ; both were referred to the Committee
on internal Improvements.
Mr. Patterson, from the Committee on Internal!
Improvements, to which was referred the bill to in
corporate the Mecklenburg Agricultural Society, re-;
ported the same and recommended its passage. -Lies
over.
Mr. Smith introduced Resolutions on the subject
of Common Schools, which were referred to the Com
mittee on Education.
Bills presented and read first time : By Mr. E-;
born, to incorporate Midway Male and Female A
cademy, in the County of Pitt, near Pact ol us. By;
Mr. Gilmer, concerning the practice of the Law.
By Mr. Smith, to incorporate the Trustees of Chow-:
an Female Institute, at Murfreesboro'.
Mr. Conner presented a bill to repeal an Act pass
ed in 1839, entitled an Act concerning the Wardens
of the Poor in the County of Lincoln. Passed firsti
reading and referred to the Committee on the Judi
ciary. .
The Chair announced a message from the House;
of Commons, transmitting a Resolution for a Joint
Select Committee, to consider the expediency of aW
tering the time of holding the General Assembly. ;
Concurred in; and the following gentlemen consti-?
tute the Senate Committee, viz: Messrs. Connr,
Washington and Walker.
The following bills were read the third time and
passed :To unite the Roanoke Railroad and Sea
board and Roanoke Railroad, and for other purpo
ses. To empower the Roanoke Navigation Compa
ny to become common carriers of Agricultural pro
duce, goods, wares and merchandize, upon Roanoke,
Dan and Staunton rivert. To incorporate Phalanx
Lodge No. 10, 1. O. O. F., in the Towu of Wash
ington. To incorporate the Town of Shelby, in
Cleaveland County. To alter the time of holding
the Spring and Fall Terms of Cleaveland County
Courts. To incorporate Macon Academy, in the
County sf Wayne.
The following bills passed their second readings:
To amend the Act of 1 830-7, entitled an Act to
amend an Act to authorize the Governor to estab
lish a Depot of Arms at Newbern. To incorpOmte
the Island Ford Manufacturing Company. To in
corporate Mt. Lebanon Lodge. No. 117, in Edge-comb.
Mr. Kendall called up the bill to pay witnesses!
for their attendance before a Clerk and Master,
Commissioner to take an account, &c , which, after '
some discussion, was rejected.
A message was received from the House of Com
mons, informing the Senate that they have laid up
on the table their resolutions to go into an election
for U. S. Senator on the 20th instant, and proposing;
to go into that election to-day at 12 o'clock.
The question being on concurring in this propo
sition, Mr. Gilmer called for tbe Ayes and Noes.
They were taken as follows: Yeas 25 ; Nays 23.
Tbe Senate then voted. When the name of Mr.
Thomas, of Haywood, was called, he arose and said
that his position was a peculiar one. He believed!
the will of his constituents was in favor of T. L.:
Clingman ; and he therefore gave .their vote instead
of his own.
Mr. Davidson, from the Committe appointed to
superintend the election of United States Senator,!
reported that there was no election. See House
proceedings for tbe joint vote.
The bill to emancipate John Good, a slave, passed!
its second reading. i
The bill to amend the Revised Statutes, chapter!
104, concerning publio bridges and ferries, was in
definitely postponed.
The bill to limit the term of Sheriffs, was laid
upon the table, Yeas 32: Nays 17,
Mr. Lillington presented tbe resignation of the
Hon- R. M. Pearson, as Judgeof theSuperior Court,
which was read, and ordered to bo sent to tbe other
House.
And then on motion, the Senate adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The following matters were referred to the Com
mittee on Propositions and Grievances : Mr. Ham-
riok presented a Memorial from sundry citizens of
uaston Jounty.
Mr. Erwin introduced a bill in relation to an act
laying off and establishing the County of McDowell
Mr. Hicks introduced a bill to facilitate the col4
lection of certain debts, &-C Referred to the Coin
mittee ou the Judiciary.
Mr. Ferebee introduced a Resolution to send a
message to the Senate, proposing to raise a Joint Se
lect Committee, of one on the part of the Senate audi
two on the part of the House, to wait on Charles1
Manly, and inform him of his election as Governor
of the States 5ta Adopted.
Mr. Martin offered a resolution, to refer so much;
of tbe Governor's Message as relates to School Com-
bers of the Genera 7e2UtS
tern of Excha. Ds!n to tJ
Library. "lt,
Mr. Caldwell, of n.,:i,. .
tion, instructing the pr.''"
quire into the propriet, 7 TH
State to issue J3 VJ
Mr.ShufordintroUuctlf!0
Collectors in every Coi.m
to the Committee on P?"y 10 fcfi
Mr. Nixon in,,. , 1
of the Clerk of the Countv r
Referred to th r i cru
Mr. Courts. frT
cobauuea a new Uount yn
ontEetaWe. c.L N ,
Mr Dacy, from the Comri
of two Gates across n
ut :uargeu irom tue fu.i.
samp.
On motion of Mr. Die?5. futa
postponed. i-
Mr Dancy, from the same (
j w luc uiM l0 .
campment, in the Tn l.TH
passed its 2d readin? At J;
granting the County Courts i
jurisdiction over certain public
2dreadiDg. p illeEt
A message was then receipt
concurine in the nm..: , 1
to-day at 12 o'clock. T' ?
Mr. Dancy, from the
reported favorably to the bill b
company, in the Town nf p..5l
pased its 2d reainz.
oauerthwii
tee, to
Railroad, reported them backlog
ged to be excused from tu f-i.1
Mr Washington p-7 -fj
.dh.dhoH";r23
with the prm. (Mr.
W ?.k r 1 .u. r- rr, K f i ur ,!,;, was P". 7.f
1 " .i.ii i lire mil, uu " vBi; inisiw.KH i" ' r Ml,u f
I tha Cmintv nf A nento fmm Mili Int. Ti afBr2 mt-rfiv tO tie , . J'
missioner, to the Committee on Education. Adop-j
i
introduced a bill to exempt the
ted.
Mr. Hargrove
Mr. Satterthwaitp. fmm v. t . .
whom was refeswJ a. H
Legislatnre of Maryland, in J
ged to be excused from the fartlJ
The same gentlemna reportjjw
the resolutions of the LeNlVt- j,
begged to be discharged form lie;
eration. Concurred in.
The resolution iu favor of At:
r.A o.l i:
The following bills twssM tu
The bill to incorporate Male AaiJ
ty of Iredell. The bill to inamj
ville Female Academy. Tb(kSJ
Dallas Male Academy. The bOlti J
maie renege in the UoQuty of A
Road from Newton to Momma I
the County Courts of MeckleabJ
tain funds to tbe County Courusfu
demn a part or tiajne Street, ill
roe, for the purpose of erectiu iJi!
rate Blount Creek manuractorisCi
town of Fayetteville. To imwji
Guards. To amend an Act entitfe
mate the Inspection of Turpentia
Mr. Lesch, of Davidson, sooiaz
ki. badger for senator of United
to send a message to the Senate,!
of said nomination. Carried
The Speaker announced tkrs
for the execution of the JoiatordM
United States Senator.
Committee ou the part of tie Be
tend the election of Senator, Mae.
ders.
The House then proceeded .
The Resolution infaroroflSK
Mr I.nnir from the CommittftHI
election of Senator, reported afsi
cast. Badger 52 ; Clingman t;l
7 ; Edwards 13 ; Jag. B. Shepri2
Fisher 6 ; Veuable 2, Biggs 2
Eaton 1. No flection.
Wednesdit.M
SENATE.
Mr. Patterson presented iseaj
tanla of Wilkes County, mmv,
Countv of Matausra : which
it relates, was laid upon tbe uto
Mr. Walker,-from theCnm
tions and G'ievances, reporirtt
cipate John Williams, aS!a.H
mnt.
Mr. Patterson, from the ComsS
Improvements, reported the m
making a Turnpike Road fon
the line of the State ot Geor5
r., - Qut iv.mmitiee ot oM"
lur a ocicn kj
DiRtriet. to consider the tim
-i i:.: I nilriCll
n ,JKv Mr.
r 1AU T .ilililfl JIH0'
act oi io-iu-, iiiu. .- g
rp.aRPSfimeut of the UndVl
i;.,.n0n nf tixasfc
accurate emioi .
rHi,i. Bf Mr. Vr
Company, mo i,
over. , f.4
dir. omiwi, ui. . -
tne juuiciary, "r..-
.o,.....,-.piii. and recoi
All ureu"""-i -
State1, cl.iung'"1"!,,
.u in laVOf Of V"
anu iiic wv
first reading.
The following
bills p'
ttieT"
t . t. . iiicnriinraie
Pitt. Concerning lbe rW
emancipate """-ft,;
U1C . .4
of
r ...i.,.,mrg or ine v" .
KKsute8.en
To incorporate tne - .
Institute in Morlree-J
To incorporate .a
ciety. The bill y2
Chapter lt&to'jZdA
. ' 1rpH. with prop: I
printed. .
The following u.,.r
To incorporate Mt.
Edgecomb. To.ocog
fact-ring Company.
dolph. To meno.
nor to establish a depots
emancpate job -..j
John b
xxv-U ,; latter
r desirous" rirf
""irnTrodoced-
foritspsswge. .dk(i
1 red to the Committee on Private bills.
Coatiaul