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- r ':l t - n A 1 JS '-if, '4. IT- pttn lire thtpllflirrain!eilghtalpeBce( UnwT'dbyprtTfje,toUellkeSrotliT Vol. VIII Monday, December 1806. 6.3.'' "A I ISC DEBATE on the JUDICIARY BILL, Vr. Cameron's Ameodraenifor extending Mu Tro oietch concluded. Somuch foi thepvesent court sys" Hm-ft systdhi which is calculated to benefit and aggrandize the few, to the injury and oppression of the ma EV a system which forms a fctroug Aristocracy in the state. Mr. T. observed thai the, friends tf the bill before the house met its pponeiits on unequal ground. Iliey not only had great" talents arrayed against them ; lvAti alp to con tend against the fixed and im mova ble prejudices of all the members from district towns and district coun tits, and all those who were under tiir mflutnee and controui : nor did they expect afair discussion ol the principles of the bill. They expect ed the opposition which had ap peared. They knew that aiy change -tf the present system, would be op- pose'l by all the force of ihbse whose inttsest it is to preserve things as they are. The friends of the hill vould nevertheless do all in their y.,wer to support it. It is a bill, said fie, Which utts us, and which we Brieve will afford a remedy to the iniuries complained of under the pre sent system. We are tor a full par ticipa'ion of the advantages accruing frnin sunerior courts or we are for nothing ; no temporising measures will now satisty us vv c are cm ?.rked on the same bottom and ?w sink or swim together. He vrould now make a few obser. va'ions -upon the correctness of the principle of the bill on the table. It had been properly observe d by the gentleman from Mecklenburg (Mr. Lowne) that this is nt a new expe riment ; the principle has been fully tried by our sifter state S. Carolina, s s'atc from which Mri T. said he was bd to draw a precedent, as it is a State which has left us far be hind in improvement, and in the pro gress of a liberal and enlightened policy. We may lock not only to its svstem of jurisprudence for an I example worthy our iu,Ution, but I to uie lniproneniemvoi intt' uuunu i)aviga:ionsHo thtir putrouage of the arts and sciences, to every depart intnt of mtemal policy, we may turn' to 't Avith advantage. He was well acquaint, d with South-( 'ami tna and wi h her system of jurisprudence ; he was well ;cquaintecl with many fc'cnikmeh of intelligence of that tate, and they ail approved their system. He iad been present in- lhc;r courts and never saw justice b iter administered any where, nor courts possess moro becoming dig nity. The Judges, the bjir and the people were all well satisfied with their systrm, and spoke of it with u kind oi siate pride as being superior to the systems of the ir S'ster states. Shall we then (iitl Mr- T.) fiotn a narrow or timorous policy, or from a superstitious reverence for old esta blishments, continue to grope in the daik, while our sister and adjoining s?a;e is thus enjoying hc fruits of a liberal policy shedding lustre on her citizen & u'.&uming a proudpre-tmi- 2nce in the,, union. He thought' Ihei-c was no mark so; unequivocal of Hie progress of mankind in ctviliiii tion and intellectual excellence as the extension of their cares beyond the narrow tircle of self interest di recting them to the reform of those systems of .'oppression, which the ignorance or inattenlh of mankind have fcuffered to receive ihe sanction of lime and the authoii y of law. Tor his part, he did not reverence amy vysleiti merely for its antiqtlity. Tic flnnrnfir.hed nut with sacred iW(? ff; linarv f r.rnrti of mir 'ancestors - t or was he one of those mad ;eVC mers, who wished to pull down every, thing ancient, andostraie aU'esta. brishrnents before a wild and vision ary p'uitof innoyatinn. But wheneyer ir ccnld be ipade appear I)y rational and fair argument that alterations? la existinqr system are necessary, he was ways wiping to change j th m, 1 There tiotfmig very diiTerent, said Mr. T. btwcea,tbc habits- and jura rh ttf the people of thi itexc and those of South-Carolina ; if the ' principle now proposed to ' be esta blished in ourcdurt system, has hat a good effect there, it may fairly be presumed it will have the samtf good tffect here. . The gentleman from Orange (Mr; Cameron) lias attempted to defend the old system by rescuing it liom the .imputation of corruption. Mr; T. never heard before, that it had been insinuated that our courts were cot runt.. He thought the observa tion of the gentleman imprudent Fpr his owiipart, no man wa more dispoued than he was to pay the highest respect to the crenllemen who now fill our judicial ofi'icea. Because our courts are notcomipt, are there no other evils in the system which call for a remedy ? Did the gentle man attempt to deny that it was in convenient for people in the distant counties to attend ihe superior courts as at present established ; or did he attempt to refute any otberof the ob jections which had been urged to the present ektablishment ? He. had assumed grounds which had not been touched by he friends of the present bill, which could not be considered as a' defence of the district principle Mr. T. supposed it might be nt- !:... . T !. .1 1-U.. t - JJCCl'Ul JUiy I ilul. X HO CUUC'liril ! opposed to tl passage of thii bill I had sufficiently pantgynscfi it ; and J h'c was disposed to give his full as sent to every thing they hud s-id in its favour, aad more Meed not be ad ded. But the proposed bill does not on ly preserve the Trial by Jury in the fullest manner, but in a much more convenient way than at present esta blished. Indeed, were the Trial by Jurv assailed or contravened in this' bill, no person in this House woul be found so hardy as to suppoi t ii. No such thing was ever contempla ted, Nothing, he trusted, would be ta ken for granted, which depended up on bare assertion only. The gentle- roan trom Urange nan said, mat there was noway of preserving the Trial by Jury in its purity, but by retaining thodistrict principle. This assertion will nor be taken tor tact. Dues not the bill l fore the house propose to preserve the Trial by Jury in the must convenient manner? And how will the gentleman shew that it will not be preserved ins its purity I Did our ancestors who for med the? present court system grasp all knowledge ? Was no other mode (if collecting jurors than the ne they -formed to be discovered ? However disposed he might be to venerate their characters, he could not be Lied to believer ttt ail intellect and all intelUgence died with them. He believed, on the contrary, that the provisions iir the present bill were such as would preserve the Jury Trial pure and unsullied. The genilenpn from Salisbury, (Mr. Stcwlc) has asked if it would be j expedient or proper to senu a junge twice a yeir into each county, when it appears from his statements, that very little businesses done in some of them Taking the gentleman on this ground, if a judge be paid for his services, is it not more fitting that he should go into the different coun ties to hold Courts, than that all the people who have business in court should attend upon him at a great distance from their homes ? The same gentleman has also in sinu ded that this is an attempt to le gislate, the present Judges out of office. He believed the gentleman did qualify the insinuation by saving the members of the, pTesent Assem bly from the imputation, for him self he disdained anv such unworthy motive, no man had more pcrWial respect than he had for the present Judges, noV'impwho would be more t readv to make their situation cum- 1 1 tddy ifortaile. But because he regarded tthem. iind because they filled, their offices with hbnoVto themselves, and l icftjlnesg tu thir country,' was that any reason why tfceState should not have a more convenient -System cl Jurrsprudence than the present? Ae- cordingtotheargumetits ofgentlerneh, we could, at no mturc penod, change our Court System. We must for ever go on in the same course. . tMr. T. .said he would diraw ano ther argument m favour of the pro nosed' change jn dur Sytcm Uqhy- the example of S. Carolina. It will have a beneficial effect upon the mo rals of the community. In S. Caro lina the petty offences of assault and battery, See. offences which are moil frequent amongst the lower class of citizens are now scarcely heard j ot ; because the pedpte ot thit coun try have been taught to reverence the Uws and to respect the Court9$ having no other Courts amongst them but those that will inforce one and command the other ; every trans.. gression of the law is there properly punished ; instead of bring brought! before a court, as in this State , for f which they have no rttVere'nce and! j where they are generally discnargtd ; by payment of a frivolous fine which does not deler them from future commissions of the same offences. But the gentJenlim from Salisbury j had attempted to oppose the pussage of this bill, on very high ground on a ground, which if he could sustain, he would readily aree vv:th him that it ought not to pass, viz. thtt it was unconstitutional. It appeared, to him however, that the usual candour or intelligence of that gentleman had lefvhim on this occasion. He looked upon ihe objections made on this -vt round as entirely without founda-; uonjpbut as they had been gravely advanced, they were entitled to a reply. Th: 1st section of the constitution which he fcad noticed was the 4th of the bill of rights, which directs that the different ranches of the Govern ment shall be kept distinct. Why this section had been quoted, he could not tell, for there certainlv was nothing in the bill which con victed with it in the least. If the gentleman shewed any connection between them, his remarks had made uo impression on his mind. Mr. Steele, explained. The gentleman produced! next the 9th article of the bdl of right., whicl declares,.-" that .no free man shall be convicted of any crime, but by the unanimous verdict of a Jury of good and lawful men, in open court, as heretofore used " sndendeavoured to shew, that this -had a reference to the mode' of selecting the ury ; whereas i! certainly was not the mode of selecting Juries, but the Trial of Jury itself, which the fra mcrs of he Bill of Rights Had in view; ami, according to the com mon rules of construction, thisis the plain and obvious meaning jf the words. This bill certainly does not therefore e-icroach on this sec tion. The gentleman's argument, that the Leglslafuic ought to hare con sulted the Judge before thej attempt ed to make any change in the Judi ciary System, wa. quite a novel and : strange doctrine to him. ' It never occurred to him, that it va ncces- sary lor the J-egisiaturc lo consult anv author ty with respect jio the ex j pedtency of any of their measures. I This Assembly he hoped, on thecon I Irarywouldbetoo jealouc of its rights, j to allow the interference ofaiiy branch of the Government with its measure But the gentleman had said that the Judges had a constitutional right to be consulted on such occasions. It appeared to him that such a consul' tationwodkkrcally be confounding the legislative and judicial branches of the Government. Something had been said aloul expence. 4.lle would not take up the time ofjthe House with calculations on this subject. We shall never have a$gdod system, , if wa. estimate its vatuerby its cheapness, or if we incline lo'letf pur. Offices to the low esfciddev. Though he shoulcV al j; waysDe tavovabie t ;i he abhorred publ. ways be favorable to public economy; c parsimony, ami I he vould alike avoid en idle profu- siotiof public monies and that wretch j ed policy which is calculated to des troy every liberal establishment a mongst us. Iet us, therefore, not 1 consider whether the proposed sys tem will cost more orless, by a fi,w thousands of dollars, but let us have a good system. vIt is from a niggard ly parsimpny in our Public Councils, that more improvement does not take nlacc in our State, that we are lef behind our sister Stales in all the im beilUh ments of social life. Taking every thing into vietv, however, he had m doubt but -the new system v? pidd )c less cJftsivc ths& the uld. But this consideration had ho weight with him. Upon the who?e, iVlr. T. was for rejecting lh5 proposed amendment, and for establishing Superior Courts in every county. This opinion was formed on much mfieciion; had he not been friendly to this change in principle, he should not have been a Member of the present Assembly. He represented a part of the country which had experienced the evils of he present system and his constituents wereanxiotis foi'the proposed change, and unless his wishes and sentiments had been congenial with theirs he should have disdained CO have been seen their representative on this floor, he should therefore, give his nega tive to the motion before the, Houses Mr; I7. K.. MAuTty said, that whatever might be the bias on bh mind in regard to the Wishes of that part of the community-, the interest of whom it was peculiarly his duty to be watchful of, he trusted he would do no injustice to them or the rest ot: the community, if, afera j fair and mature consideration cf the two Systems, on which the house was now deliberating, he yielded his feeble support to that which teemed to promise the greatest share of learning and integrity on the bench, of information and industry at thc bar, and to exclude from the box the ignorant, dp;ndent or party-man. In search cf these advantage?, b,'S said, he considered ccccnomy and convenience as objectsof minor con sideration he hoped the house would not count th; pounds, the shil lings and trie penc. Judging that the amendment pro posed by the gentle man from Orange was better calculated to secure these benefits, he hoped it woufd bu sub stituted for the bill. r The hardsliius of long, continued and fatiguing journies, the incon veniences of narrow, and noisy lodg ings, the abandonment during a considerable portion of the year of all the camiorts of his dwelling, the company of hh family and the scci- j; ety of his friends, the' reduction, oft the present scanty emoluments of office, were not considerations that were likely to insure the continu ance in office of any of the gentlemen who now fill our bench, or to allure from the bar any of those whose talents procured a decent subsistence. A Judge was to be twenty weeks of each year on the circuit, the & prerne court was rdiuotobe attended, he was to travel r'o the rnosl disUni parts of the State. Durinefthe h df year which these services would consume, his expences added to the incidental ones which the office would occasion during the rest of the yea', would reduce to one half of his salary the meagre pittance on which his family were to be supported, lie never cuuld hope of ever securing any provision for them after his con tinuance in oiucc. His straightened circumstances would render hin ir ritable and peevish care and anxiety would ever intrude on his thoughts i and dzprice him of that tranquility and composure of mind, so ntces safy in the discharge of the arduous duties OiJTrs office. If e observed that a miserajjs ex pedient had been resorted to, to ren der the original bill supportable The legal fee of counsel had been re duced to two fifths of the present ratce, &no alternative was left to gentlemen, i but a choice of a breach of the laws of their country ora renunciation of tli e best part of the rewards of their labours. Attendance on courts was rendered more and more irksome Sc unprofitable. Our best lawyers, would certainly cany their industrv anu weattivinto sucn 01 our sister II States, in which the price cf their servfces was leit to be settleu bv the gratitude of the client or the a- gretment of those who require and those who renderthem. The re mainder would soon cease lo be re spectedand perhaps to respect them selves. Narrowing the circle within which jurors were to be summoned, would certainly lessen the number of indc- pendent and intelligent men (alrea dy too small) which attend on our juries. It would often happen, or be believed that ignorance or parti- a ... i - fT 'dictated their verdict. .tart item justice, these evils, he -dded, wctitu be most sensibly feh. The nurkbf . of law cmcera which tht new systtni , called for would leave but few k and learned then to be employe for the defence of the. lives and 're .' putation cf our cUrns '; and if ib to courtsel reserved lh?tnielves for this lucrative part of ' a . counsel's prackv". ticc, the interest a the State ftiusf be enti iisted to very unskilful hands Men of talents and information m tne crown Jaw vvere $crce-a Mr. Martiiisfed from what quarit th necfiary supply which -the fell t; ! caiie, for was expected ? -They would not spring up like mushrqom of a morning under the prolificrdcW of the bill; V ' Little care hid hecrl taken of anf prbrision for the di; patch of Euu f . busincss - s - ihe subject was merely glanced -au.. Clerks and masters in equity were not even named, while provision w as made for the election of,omcerst f t!r.i kind in the law d partment. Indeed it was mmouredl out of doors thct, the jurisd ctio-i of 1 county superior courts was intended j by a bdl, rtOw in the pocket of a gen j tlenian, for the appoint meni: of . 11 lit .11-1 . chancellor, ana tne estaDi.snmej 'W of a court of chancery, winch was to be ul ways open at the City ot Ra leigh. ' ' , Mr. ML. akd whether the nl -men were ready to swallow 'his tnon strou1 P-H Whether the coave-' j niencc cf thj people, or the circu i w . stances of the poor, were consulted" in a plan which would demand ih attendance of citizens frott ..11 prti ot tha State to a place inconvenient pone"' alrea.-y enormous, which a tends the-determination of a suit in equitv. Euch party would have to employ two se's of sou citor, one at ... hame to consult with, t. dta.v thflp' bill or the answer, and attend to th service of process ; another at tne ssat of government toproqure order, argue pieas and attend the hearing.' in cae: ot a reterence, :ne parac a r,nd their -witneses wauld have tf attend the master from the cxireitti ties to the c rner of the S .atc. If lioGnomy was to influence tha vote of the house, had the gen leV j men calculated the exptrtccsol erect ing nf.y-two jails-anu suppoiiiug a ( civil army twkea year of ngh-tee i. hundred jurymen i r ; Would the convenience of the peo- pie be consul; ed n providing a s) 5 I tern which woukf send cveiy cast of the least importance to be dctcnur- nd in' the supreme court if Ltz i- Would the interest of the State be .said to nave b en ..umcic". ty utiended to in n Cili, wniu eiia ztlzd a poyerful individual u defy at home the justice cf his counry, if he could influence- the sheriff and consequently the jury, ana array ' the industry and learning ot the bur against a jUvig-1 assisted only oy 4 twenty do'lar t ickty-i ' The aris oi.racy of the district towns was held ot.t as a bugbear. yir M. asked whether tne psotie were less free under -t ie monavtny' r ..... 01 one city in legislative ..alter!, , than when the Getunil Asscit-oly, under the royaloveninicy -vetted in a kind , of alternate mgr&Uon most of the chief towns of the coun-. try I The people of Wk; "did i.ot appear to him more the object of ic usiative attention tn .n those of Bun co mbe or Carteivt. 7 Neither are, continued Mr. M largfc comtnerciil popultius towns without their advantages to the State. They drcW aniadux of tra vellers, they weie the nurseries of learning, they favoured the-progress of arts, civili7-tion andouriii-banitv,, They afforded convenient marts Without them our tradesmen mu t remain bunglers, our physic a quacks, our lawyers, pettyfoggers, and our divines ranting fanatics. A system which brought together at pei radical intervals,-the principal inhabitants of ajcounty to the court house, and some of them at less fre qunt rate, vais to the district tewn and a fawep number annually at Uo seat of government, seemed better calculated to advance the interest o the jpcople', by giving them fiv 'iC one which kepi ihtm. alooi He coniidered t(ywnrks tWmnsrW f thepolitkal bbb; y-rW& ?zt:l -t- " 4: -4J J .-,r y. t "..Hi x. 0J 1;.) -11 a 1 t i&ti , , : ' : - ,SwT,.tJM - .j, L.rSt
The Weekly Raleigh Register (Raleigh, N.C.)
Standardized title groups preceding, succeeding, and alternate titles together.
Dec. 22, 1806, edition 1
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