, ' 1 - . . . - ; . ' .s:-'-' ? .fxA1? ( f.. , '.v, ,v ' , --;
.tt s , .
V
, irlfBATE
on th
; 2TUDICIAKY BILL
i$ht natkai being pat o the bill amend
" ingthe Judiciary Systera, pawmg; a sc
ZnA Tiffin?'. . f. ; .
MtC STKEt was afraid it VauW
u&eless to offer any tarther,ot)?tr.
Yations gttfnst ; fftge , lbl
mntnntinn in a hiaidritr orthe hpWH
to pa it at all events and ;wth all,
its rfeftweb in pttneipk an jii detail :
, The objection! urged gaUm thf
Vitl on the acore of piiriciple, oughi
tali fatalto it, because it Jays the
axe to the rct of ar security, and
at; one blow jvjU deprive u of tame
pf the best; frus of jhe ReTolbudn
f a-judiciary ihatliid iccurfcd io uh
mndtwould if contmued secure to our
posterity, the; full enjuy merit at
ihone ric-hts wMch we had flattered
ourselves were placed by the rtvplu-'
oii on ireashahlexfo
We object to t7iis bilU. sid Mr Sr
Vscause it alters esssntially the ba
lance ; of our goT, mmenUAby Iritter
fhray th judicial pHrtof it. 1
Whilsntlena.arc advocating it, ;
they are following thei (example of
theetates'tthich had been referred toi
in one respect, anclfhot Vrtanmher.
If gentlcmefi succeeded m passing
thiVbd!ind ey arc' riot prepu;ed
give more permauency -tot he- Exe
cutive and Senate, xhty wilt no; act
according to ihe precedents whicb
had fccen utlduced by the m. I f hey
are for the whote. plan;, it is to he ha
peil thd legislature-Ulot support
Ihem in it ; if (qrpartonly, we;
tnast be permitted to Vsay their con
iact tneohsistent and tithbut pla
Mjr S. hoped, . however. ah,t this
h would not finally psss. Though
ita progrrssjiouid riot beaif rested in
this house, it hd to undergo consi
deration in another branch of the' Lt
slature, where, he ousted, iherr
tvpuid be found a majority aint it.
k" and that itsi rejection in that house
"wculd illustrate the advantage and
'propriety of dividiAg Legislature
intft two branches Mr. S: waft bp -posed
to changes in the powers of
government, and said he woulj' ra
ther have; permanency in ihe Judi
cUry than in the teglilature or Exe
tiuiye j because the former acted
according to- fo-ms and precedents,
in lhe presence Of alvigUant and en
lightened birrand hable t hJI times
K oe controueo oy ine virtue anu my
dependence of Jur e :. But take aav
rxem, ana anainer ri oi xiwer aiK,
permanericy mutit - be : giyep. toXhi
ovetnmet, which he t did not! be
Seve the; -legislature; or th Veople
Were prepared lo give v Yet the pas
sing of this bill would'maKe such
ahanges in some degree una voidable
There muste power. and perjma
ttency in 9ome part of the go v eriu
inent ; and the people who do no
tlow dreani A" uch a' consequence
"necessarily following this innovatien,
will be . called upon ere long to rts
fore the balance of the constitution
y vesting them in . other dep?rt-
ments, where they cannot be o safely
trusted or so well execisett, hecaust:
Hot neld under reaponsibiKty by rdle
lind uiagp Lo well defined. i
-'-The 'nsitmipH of ?7& lias, fixed
" the balance of ' pur government, ar.i.
we want no innovations on what was
then established. 0Vc revere the in,
- Vtitutiona .of. that day,- and would
ieherelore stay the hand of innovation.;
TThis is thj day of innovatiotv and
xperimeht. 'i very ; free govern
. U ; yl "l r. ' '' ' i -Wi
A n nrlt . ft- m ... .1 Z
These attacks are amoh'k the efiecta
vof th&t freedohJ, nd being so, those
in danger of iiavmg jts best initU.tt-J jurymen belonging ' to the- original
lions destroyed lh proportion as 1 venire v by. rempiory c&aileftgC3j
fcur govemmems, ale free, our insti- j Abd.'halaieanienc'aliedCwh
tutions for the' Reservation of that I hi: jfricndswoub
Jfho are anxiQus for tlie reeryauoit 1 cehdedo uC'feiiai??
k ' ji our; libeHie, should- be caTcfbllftlstofsi and ;s ecfirjecS 6 i0xv.
Iiow.they countenance a
tabli$hed systns.. But this is notlf libvur WhaifreemahaU fbr the
theonrV reason i?ri5bpposing the pas
to be ah attack Upoti pur secnriy-.
, -viJon aat security oy winch .we h!d
every rightia society; for thou glttrial
py jurjrbe but single privilege, yet,
it t taav orectou3 one which -.uarati
Lt,- int rnnnniiinpt' anri c i I a. t.. , . ....- it.iiitw.ii wmiM. nnar u .ill m'nii. tinftui hurl utin, . -... . --. im -4. . ; li ;
genv f d?er. "tlitA And if yo J I obvious Tjjm ilfarinlego ofitnal.JfthishiapwKdintoal toMaiJ4W''nvii "fiotf.lT.'ictaw
take- away this security, you itvef
fpcdepriyeU3; of thes rights theiri
telveK which were, mUndedtp .be
secured., ' .v ' - .r
' - T he gentlemen have attempted to
answer ou argunentr: qn this sub
jectv by supposing that we had said
this bill wouIdUake. aWay. the:-trial by
lury. altogether; , We'have said no
such thing,; butVlhat-it takes away 4
all tnat; is .vajuawje m . ine ; 4. nut - uy.
iurytheichanee um and
pimty anu iauitg,.away unsj uicjr
rnign as wtll I k"4 thaigluitseij
Hi bQ always understood that a jiir
rymHtr ought ipbe fiee fimall: man
ner 'of inrebr: prejudice, per
tecUy indiffent between the parties.
m is it possible that there is so
-g ood a chance 1 0 get m en of - this
description from a jingle county, as
from a plurality of counties C . rvy
uc niber of ! this house 4hink o.r
This U one of our stro -g objections
4rthe bill. An impartial jury is
essential'.-1 part of a comt-r-it is the
'jest part ;Of it. When u man i
brought into court'to be tried for a
capiul oifence, ne do;eA not loos-to
theibench but the jury-box for life or
da-tin. Tile omce, or rather the;
joWer of a jury is judicial by n gent -.
m verufct (ot gunty w not guwy,
hey do; completely 'resolve both t he
aw and the fact. This being the
case, is at not of the utmost impor-
snce that they should go jnt'o court
-irce from evcivirejudice or b'm
that might prevenf aii impartial d-.
'cisicnr " -'"'"' . -'--v -
But it it replied, that if . ibjustice
be.donej xthe Judge can grant a new
trial. Will his be attended with no
inconvenience I la there no un
certainty no hazard in leaving it 00
thW ground ? Gentlemen-' wilt do
ell to tecollect, vhat it has been tht,
policy of our lftw to preserve the.
jury unbiassed as. much a5- rusible
froni the h;nch The Judges huy
1ef nprohihited ft-om giving an opinion
a trial, wheiher a fact be proved
br;noti:. Sec the aci of 17 I; it.
improper u .allow, - and the Jiide-
canr.ot grant a new trial except for le
gal cau c a This is a clear jj n nciple of
aw Here Mf, S. enumerated' th'-.
causes for Which he believed a new
trial miht be gpnted in civil aises,
Sc sait it was absurdio suppose iicw
aiatexould be granted at the disce
Hon of theJudges, when they coulu
not before the jury had retifed, even
ijive ad oinion whether a fact haci
been proved or not.
If you intend vhatnpw trials ahull
.be! grhhted as has beeU suggested
you must give more' power to you
'Jvidges; Y This will scarcely be done,
as it has hecn the p)licy of the s'ate,
nd it is always olid policy to make'
juries as independent aa ss'ible.
STo evil can. result from this, while
.hey are coti posed, as hcrfitolbre,
?f iijtelligent, virtuous, and dipas
. io Je men. But how does the rule
c oncerning n.ew-iri.als, apply to cri
minal ' caaes f Suppose ' aiv tudivi
Jual, rich, powerful 3nd iulJuentidK
-v ilfully , .cortinjits -violence" upon a
ioor and helpless, though virtuous
t'ernaltt &nd he is brought to irial to
artswer forhis crime ad'tirii 'hat
th county "court haa ttken pains
thaxe thirty men summoned' aW ju
f r8. wftoarc above A ."e'xeeption.
Irlalf of thete vduldbe retjuircd f
Vhe grand jury. -'S4rpp0.it thejgrand
juvy unanimously tlnd tne . biTt-
There remains ;of Aha'trtgi ual veni re
Tihly fifteen 1 juroia to try him,; and"
f hey are .ail 1 table to be challenged
nd vsuppose ; the- court-house : be
trouded with the friends of tne accu-
,sed9rdeleimiheuViCpossibl to acquit
ruit him.
J Wfiram ? y No H Itis ttear nnhcmle
1 ot the cbnirnon law which has oes-
- 1 Ramfnce twicitjiutiuebir
'jmi if aqt
It quiUed torever. . .
j k Thia i sCatihgVthe case an a sup-
j position that the thirty jurors ap
Uan tner oitencler be tried
mnica by live county court; are an
I. . -j ,...t. . .: 1
icngmgn tne wnoie -may or set asiae
and the result be as han been stated,
WKncut uie -possiDiiuy ot a new
triali.and that ?ch cases ' occur
imdeV; , the " proposed y stetp, Kno. re
fleeting mind can for iv'ar.oment
ooubt. ,i v
t Would a criminal have the same
chance , of cscapiag, if tried upon
the Z pre'seiit estahltah nieht pt : out;
cbjtt? j';ertajni Siln.ot; t u the juryJ
heing jsejcted frp$t k plrajit. cf
Sjut.tet$ui Jxeje "jrom, any
bias on thcirinind.and if.taltsmen
wflire called,, the ptohaliirtty would
bit that they -would be p$rsotis uo
connected with the prison r -This
is the kind of system worth preserve
i ng, this is the system which has hi.
hertQ tended so: piuch t ouf hap
jinesii and security. But iris about
to be broken to pieces, ia order to
ttiae way, for a most -hazardous ex
periment.. ;
It has been admitted by the gen
tlemen in favor of t he bill, that some
:; ticonvc.picnc.es, must aijenu all ma
terial changes ia ijur judiciary esta-
Dhhraents. Ltt us, said Mr. S.
-.xamine,. sorrre of th; itKonvenien
ries which will attend the propose dj
leincics have already been fct i
Me; -beopls have been argued and f
teased tntOia dissuUsfaCtion with the
present svVem.
i hts house has J
j ,
icen agUattd by the suiij-ct. The
ffiM"jMti?e is called 'on to anoint
Judges, and send thtm into the se-jj
Serai counties of the state to hunt U1i
busijass, where? therej is none atj
Lpresent. : i he same plan extended ,.
Judges ride to every man's door, j
d aik'hirrt if he had aoy businesAi
ibr heta to" do any controversy
tvtlr his ncjgb'r to be anjadged.-
Tiis would bt caijying justice lite- I
hilly to the doirs of the jeople
ouier icjnvcnKnce is insti u wm
out each of the counties-to the ex. n
pence of calling out' juries twice a f j.
year ; ad -instead of sending three j!
r four tola uperior court, as at pre- ji
sent, they wul.ba calltd upon v i
send thirty to the county superior
courts.
Wiiat is to be done with all the
records a?d papers now lying in the
dificreat superior couiti ? They are
to ue sejit into the 'different counties.
The gentleman who now have the
-jdre of them will have to travel with
heni
trom one court
hout the teveryl
to , anothc;
Qistrietsw
ence; whicli
Is it of no
nrouxi
1 this - oot an inconvem
ueri"j considei-aiion I ;;
noment that the judicial 'records of
tic stkre ahouid hH out in mo? ion;
i t V
ana mao'e iuuie to we suuanaerca
nd 1 jst I - ,. - -i ' -'
Another inconvenie nce wili be, the
"rouble, delay yuid trxpeitce. which
thU -change. v4H give those persons
who :hava". suits on -the present supe
rior cout docfcis They have em
ibyed their council, gentlemen of
the bar in whose talents and fidiUty
;hey,havc full confidence, they have
made them acquainted with their
duses, and have probably paid them
high fef:s. But now they will have
to look elsewhere for council, as the
frrobabiihy is. - that the gentlemen
whom they have heretqfere engaged
vvill not attend the coini in : which
hese causes are to be. tried under the
new arratrgement,5 hayjyti bean se-
iaraied irom thuir clients and their
business by ah actpf the legislature,
they will stand ? released from their
entcaeementi sbolh for a leeral and ma-
jtal 4)bmrbf view and-tlie unfortunate
clients will be' driven to the expence
ana : irouoie or em pioviugnew coun
schr This cct.ijwnuhors both
! n relation 10 expece anq cicuy, is
'5j ibcohsistent with tb cantinV pro-
fc ssious contained in tne preamble ,
)hat; it xbujd "not but nvcj weight
with the housed - - ' ;
Mr S. said he woutai forbear 4o
saV anV thinsr oh the . aubiectof? the
prc4?onhty courts t hut tfiere
.'atrn '.rcaibn to' beiieyehat
if Hnfy are not now aoousnea, ;uiat
Shis will t& their late hereafcer.
ierefrw;u not oe t juiuess xor 1 two
courts in a county, 1 hese cannat be
twp uns; trt'the anie.1 hemispeTei
Gentlemen, whaadmi re. the con si it u:-
tiorv of7 our county Courts and have
an attachment Br them for the great
services iney nave renuereu, . lie no-
be destroyed if not now it would foL
low in a year 'or two as an ineVitaHe
consequence '
-, 4t.il. . am, must aaijreue
rate to the house, that this bill rk
greatly objectionable, as h' reffarcl
"ic cuwsLiuiiQii x ne. mi -arttcte.
of the constitution secures to the
J U'Jges ' Adequate saTaues .during1
their continuance in ofnCe, VthV
jjrpvi.siortof the constitutionimay be
yiofaled; eMher y dinwnishing ;ihe
compehsatibii or. by 4naaTng-tlte
dotie s If the sahriea are bnl xr ade'
1 quale a present, and being siVwhen
ine juages attenaed tour courts in
the year,; they must certainly be intt?
dtqutttteiil they areitredtb
.-attend ;wenty.r Thebillnbwv vn m
passage more thaii douhiese jaifeif
andjduty withou(fdiria
lar to ther cbmpensatibn. ; Tafen
the, alary.as a present,' therefore to
be but an hr deqbate compehsaubn;
for attending; the istrictvauperibrj
courts,t mpstbe clearfy maderiuate
for , attending the county taienof
court. y In ihif point ;ofyiew the
bpf is, so :, unquestionably ; utiebn
iUtitutUnal, that no candid man of r
dinary intcilect wrll or can disputeit
Mr S. here repeated the other head
of his former argument on the un
constitutionality of the bill and tid,!
( 5 that he SOlemlV WelievL lhf tnYv
1 ' "7
the bill would be h violation of the
best principle of the constitution ;
and hnDnt that irv TrUnr B tVv.V
represeutauye'?';g6venWent vwbaIdi
with him, vote against it. - ;'
Mr. Troy had no doubt that every
member in the house nad marie up
his mind on this question ; and he
did; not expect any thing he could
auy on the subject would make a shr
gle proselyte -to hi bpmid; -He;
rose entirely out of respect to the
gentlemim from Sahsbu y and to the
imrwrtiince of, the subject and he
wouu aeianmne nouse but a very
tew -moments. ..with hia observations,
He would have been willing, nay he
was -desirous to have passed over iie
subject in silehce, becausc,iie fbund
himself at ajl times unequal to meet
the gentlemen who are arrayed, i.
gaiiiit this bill in the field of argu
ment. Much more-; was he .inade
quate to such a , cnvest (iitsppied
as he was) -and nothing would hare
brought li fa vom his room to-day
but the importance of thts bill. li c
believed with the gentleman from
Salisbjaryi ihat arlare majority of
this house would be found in-favor of
the bill on the table,; and" iu"wai
somewhat strangs, that that1 tery
circumstance which appeared to ex
cite so mueh'fear and apprehension
in the gentlemen thbuJd ifiprd tpl
him nqthing, but security and;joy.-r
Yet ha 1 was willitt to ;believe that
they had the same great end in view,
the prosperity of th etr : bounty and
the happiness of ther people. V
Mr- T. said, he should hot enter
into a consideration of the principle
and details of the; btlii hut inafce on?
ly ,a few reniarks 'bri what had fallen i
from the gentleman from Salisbury
1 he nticman appeared1 tp;him
to assume very rerroheetis grounds,
When he takel lCfbr granted; because
an
thi
because they are' attchipingio rcngj
der more convenient the 'admtmstra-
non of jnjtice, that thare under-.
mining tne very.piiian;-Gn;w
jWii.uvv v , .....
because theyrefbVaTryhs
nor; court into everf; cbuhtyf ttiat.
v - uwjuwiiufi. m .
dence of an imp ort ant and
hatehchf the-g
ve change bfmeasureas hot: ;a
if the cnveniehec of the -v people re
quircsa change in' iheir judicial es
tabli.shmcnt,it is fairKucb ttiejduty of
this legislature; tbf iio vide -for such
convenience as? it would Win A any
bfhtf department of th government'
Are the prbvisionV which' hi Ve been
made relative to our judiciary '
manenV and imWutahle X Arc t hey
to yfcldio no - ti me5Sr to no circuhu
atanqjsif- But, this .subject i
not open for kptcularion, tWhigfie
wtvu reaper w me pwi ivy iuu ujiish- wnonvue catjt , anf tnereioceanridt
tutipbality of the proposed changeihr rhakelhe distinctioHa' fheretp're'''
our judicwtstaimshment,- f K .'i- Heve4;Vhttiu
4vi i(iu. wiiiii ucvniuiis usvc oca:,uH.l luwiut 'nncn aeaTCt Ot es(vt ii' i. !
V llzA far T&IS'h? Miii.. ?
ps-nt ihxiU-t; havt'iwf ohfr
before Us ptfcdentCiseveHr ' '
under the x latenihereserit U1'
.e''aaminifttratiAh;a'ftVirc' ' f
ectlghthemtieroe
so
00 iuc
a ant examph iaen frcn thoseC
!mesmddhaye -eaifwlght fw0
the inlnda or;th gMlemtn" frY
mionaimghob - ab vctllte-or rt 1 i i
dTed&mBa 5
Qrahge and lmj9g&3n: tie coulC ?m
riot undertake tbriktfcil '-;
tfe'iffrmalfsbn
knoh whic
inciplesjd;nbt ihdfeo''
tKifeV bf thlatVnioistra
istratibn Wheii obgrssnght
nrbper to repear theludifciaVi
enacted; by their predeceasrty wre
anf of th bnjiirtibna
heard aiusth'is bill thenvMed
except tthatnfftss hlajteTrfghi:''.,
.to;destfojrui
tedf Th jqueiUion 6( constitutibn
ality was iherefore Md$pm thje
hghen anthomy'jand,
man reus? acqujesewneitttr ne tkes
jiis principiea fjrpnl tbc olldHihts.
new school. ' );';-' : '
VAH thatvthe ;nt!eman'riaa1d.
with;ccspect tptbV triti by joi was
ssid the other day. Our cnstihi
don and our law, said Mr;T. sanc
tion the taking l;ArjiStnsii 'th$:
yicinity wherei an oncc isoirni M
ted ;; andpr th
persons ;fDm jeiieighopuchop
where an oncejscomtnitt,
are best able to jude bf tXe
dibility of ; the witnesses Vandtho;
character ot tne accuq: The ctr
cunistanccs bftheckse, the rneasest
the ; entries: ami tj cHmihalikrili
wcithediohb
bestacquaihtedth eachv?aatf,
ihcr preponderie Ctheir erdich ii
iYea. he irjstancwbich
tlemah had pnt th which J&rninal
mifehi hf jifiett bTvhis fitSidsVVmigtf--'
occur iindep ;iai:;it-"-ii---under
:fipMfMm prl
aoner had now a Hp-Kttb t..-' -l
orthodox wnivhimi! Itelwoulai!!'
aprecedentfronrihpwen
chalrenteas?far aitnltvXin -11
if the Bheriff is an hbnesr man rlWr k
we arc premJnirt;toiAhftr:
would ftotlAkaalft'm-eA mt1?f:&ij ' -$XM
tne nus ,r :;enemieof-
aoneHi-lw. hewoa!i! 'is'-'- til
tnemjfpiii, WttRfcsijpiy -f
.he&ohpw
lurors.f rot
the propoW4ft
good or better than 4hey,, were
th
j iThei 0naemanVfrbm SiUihnff
I haa again brduiht-the patHpts of M
I and the'aaahofbiinfiC
pirate, umhi vmc mc uc maes oi vne.m
th cnastituubnrie
itiitni. ui a cw.oiinci owns aione- j : i
whaf iesmoWMsl
these districta Werefbrined: th
iere such as suited .thei then sta'a
bf the country ; but surely when cir
tuwstances change, when popiilao.i,
eommerce ajrricultnre.;anl ill ih
U various"objects,of sodafJiueraHtpa
are chanedr the leCTslature Kadihe .
right, and it is their ,;bu;y .fo.ciusthi, ' '
alterations commensurate jwidan Af
exigencies of society : - Forr.his owu' if"! i
l ,)art he.ihoughtihecooilitutibhliji 1
i one -farnoughin (avoroflbX'kiu -r'Vi
i 1 ,V 1