. - ..- '-. . " " ' . . Y
:
v-
-AS
1 J"
Unwrnp'tl by party rge,toli velikcbrothca
Monday. J
vlil.
ANUAKf 19, 1S07.
o 82.
31
Gazette
;
DEBATE
JUDICIARY BILL-
the question being pat on the bill ajmencl
ing thr Judiciary system, passing v
cpnd reading,
C Continued front ovtr last. J
Mr. Cameron was not disposer
to doubt the joyful expcciatio
vhich the: gentlrnW from vns o
entertained on account of the Ipsii:
of the present question. But tpefov
the vote was taken,, he wustj tak-
leave to submit a few consideration.
to the hoise. !
Though the gem!emen in favour j
...of. the bill had called upon jthOM
pposed to it to meet them in iarjrts
jnent on the principles of the hi't
yet have they studiously ayoi-'t.
givingunya swer to their arguments,
but depend upon their majority c
c?ry their point. They say a few
district toA'ns get all the benefits of
the present system. Will gentle
meuon this .account, destroy" tht
prt sent system ?"Do they mat- ly
administration of ju.Uice a pecuniary
anatr merely ? By the. p'opf
system, i( is said that other parisol
the State will come in for a share of
these benefits. And ho v will -hi-.
advance1 the 'Administration of Jus
iicc ? Yet this is the ground wl".. r.
the friends of the bill have taken.
They . tell you the profits derived
from the courts by the district towns
must he dividepamongsi them.
The gentleman from Anson, sr. id
Mr. C. has brought the '! sample of
S. Carolina to his support. While
he turns his attention :to the south
ward, let him also look to the norh,
to our parent state, Alrginia, from
which many of cur muxim of policy
sire drawn. What is the Judiciary
of that State? Hav :hey pros; rattn'.
their county courts, and sent thei
Judges galloping round the country
to nold courts in every county ?
-'hy have c.-abllsh- id the
' district ftrinciile no feature (f it ir
changed, so dearly do 'hey cherub
it. tYei gentlemen tel us ve mus
close X)ur eyes on that quarter1, am
open them wholly to the soutli. He'
prayed gentlemen to lock where
there was something worthy of imi
taction. Virginia was certainly as
respectable an authority as S. Caro-
- iina ; but unfovtunately, we arc to
apt to copy her vices and not her
virtues. !
, The gentleman has hailed the cx
pected passage of this bill the
41 second political regeneration of the
State." Little did I expect (si:
IVlr. C.) that any gentleman of this
house would have attempted to en
list the poli ical prejudices of mem
ber i in his favour. had hoped
the gentle 'hand of Time had worn
cut the divisions which ;mrked po
litical parties. '"If matters of policy
were to: be tested by political opi
nion, we should introduce the second
reign of Robespierre, He deprc
cuttd such language as unparliamen
tary and unworthy to be used in that
hr.use. If our Judiciary' was to be
effected by political opinion, it
would be constantly varianv. Where
as that ought to be permanent,
whatever political opinion 'may be
uppermost. Ii should ever be the
, rock of Our temporal salvation ; ipon
the present 6stem u might test
with security, as the anchor of 'our
Safety v yet the gentleman ealis up
on this house, under the influ' nee of
Republican principles, to destroy i t.
Mr. Troy explained.
Mr. said he was unwilling to
attribute any sentiment tothe geM
tleman which he disavows ; bin
why hail the Reign of EepublicsnUm
it" htrdid not mean it to have an ef
fect on the, house ?
Mr. C. called upon the house to
recollect, that the gmtlcman said
that the United States has set an
.example in the alteration which
' they had made in their Judiciarv,
v though the reasoning dots not 'apply-,
as tlicconstitutbn of the U. States
ar-d the constitution of this State are
different in respect to the. Judiciarv
establishments. iIr. C. read .aii
extract from each, ;
- II e was astcmshed to learn tha
the geiJeman Iron Anson attribu
ted a biiief to the friends of ihe pre
sent spt:m, ibat Jhere was nothing;
iltiablt; iiiine conbutuiion but v.hat
secured therihts of the d i strict
owns. "VVas not Uis attributing;
notivesto gentlemen which would
honor them ? No, sir, (said. Mr.
!.) we, do pot value th- constitution,
r the'.'ptesent Judiciarv system,
rcanse it grants bctitfits to the
istrict towns, but because v gives
s con titut:onat curts and consti
utimal juries, which, equally pro
ct he weak and the strong a
uce which . nothinK but the arbiti a
v hand of power can ever destroy-.
Mi'.'C- proposed making a lew
jservatioris respectinpr the trial by
iiiy, both in respect to .criminal and j
ivil rases.
It is necessary foi the security of;
riminalst that they should be con. j
V.ed in &uhst:.in;ial j-'ils In this!
:!! it ii contemplated, tht all crL j
.inal trials shall take pla.e in the i ;
unti s where the offence is com-j
iviuA. excrot sufficient reason can il
. - n ICr.-.d to the court for a re - j.
.ov,d of the trial to an adjacent
-uuiivy
i
Supios a man commits the enoi
nous ..ffence descubed by the en
'emari fiom Scdi-uu-y, or any other
:f a capiva! nature and is confined in j
a pahrv insecur
iail in the bosom !
f his friends. Can it be expecU-d j I : )' vy a myjorny as an
that this man will tome to trial ? No,feVts without answering the ob-
j
nis friends will liberate him and he!"JlIO,,! w,c" aic "rfieu against, it
iil tro. U'iounished.
This cannot
Ue ;he -case 'when a criminal is con- !
fined in an effective "rail
iUTt t n !, 1 fA Vw . x t-1 f huo. nn i in
.ccted wi h him and not disposed toll
o.pcurc hi escape.
The gcmltmjn from Anson 4ias
aiu, tnat ne same event mignt !e j
ts iikely: to take place, under tlie j j
.resent arrangement, as under that'
pn post d, in respect to a rri'Tna! I
being tried by his frirnds. But I ok
into this matter. Tiv vhVi iff n
.ounfy ir, gcr.r rahy cho.s . n fr n. (.. :
of the most o; ulent fan die-. Whsnj
one of his friend- is bi-u!.t b. f -.el
he court, does he not know v. no .o':
return most likely u g:v a Javor-
ok judgment : tie has, perhaps, !
-ceived b-.m-fitslfrom the cose i
cud returns them in
I.Ms v.i.y.i
Would thiM be thr case
.ourt? It would not, t!:
would Mimivon t lie ry;:: ei
. OlS I I' '
i.
n f :
.uie c i
know
" i
izens tor lU'.'tjrs,
out
edt-e of theii convct'n) o'
;a: i.'di-
ies for.r ai:airist anv pvrsiwi upon j!
vhosc tr;al they Would have io sit. ij
-5 it not ihen, v. iv un; rtanl : r.at
this trial by juiy should !e preserved ' I
n it. puntv : 15ut il the
urt.Si in i
'ill pass, it wi'lh'e r?i:"'n-it in-rh.
power of the violent to ft us! 'ate the 1
enas ot justice ana trample on the
laws with impunity.
With respec to civil cases, it is
ne sub'taiicr and not the form of y
jury tn . I that is vahiabn-. We say.
his bil! prtsei ves the form of the
rial by jury, but. that it cuts up the
'principle by the roots Why do
parlies appeal from the decisions ol
the county cruris ; at prsent? Be-
rnne thev eTvji-i thi-ir rnnsf tn !..
judged with impartiality in a stipe- j
rior court ; but under the proposed
system, you would appeal from the
same persons to the same.
Suppose the caKe of a poor man
oppressed by his rich n-ighb'.ui
who, by me ns of his iniluer.ee,
gets a verdict in. the countv f our.".
What can the poor man do ? If he
appeals, he has no pro-p ct but that
ef dcuol.i'ng his costs, without a
chance of redress. If, then, the
j right ol. trial by ju.y be not well se
j cured, will the house make an ex..
I a k -
penment witn precipitancy : lo
1 t ft , - a
uo so, woum o'e acTint; nKe a man
who should discard. set vani who
faithfully served hinifoifthirty years,
and take a stranger into his house
in his stead. -The
friends of this bill have ac
idised those opposed to i's princi-
ip!e. with attempting indirectly todc
feat their vit-w . We'ay they have
i never given us an argument in sup
port ot it. W e oppose it, because
we see in it principles injurious to
tne com mun ity-anaa in ctotng mis,
we tviixke no attempt to tnlist any
prejudices against it.
i With rcr.pct. to the unconsiipj
Mrrnality of his bill, from its pro.
vision to appoint illegal Judges, he
should say nothing upon it, suppo
sing that that prt of the constitu
ion
which d"nec's the manner ofc
Happokiting Judges was well ucidcr:
stood. H did not suppose 1t woutcf
have been contended in this house,
that any other Judges than constitu
tional Judges could be ;prointd ;
f but the bill on the t blc contem;;la!t s
the appomfmen of Judges for three
years a-t the end of which time, if
the law Ue not re-enacted, vou will
have to tell the Judges to descend
from the bench, and mixagain wish
the people. This wouhi be uv con
stitutional ; for, jf once u J if is
appointed, he is always a' Judge,
except he be removed from office
by .impeachment. And if t he Judg-
es 'c.ppointtd under this law are un
constitutional Judges, how can wc
answer to the people for the dcci ,
sions which they shall make ? We
might, said Mr. C. as well seiec?
two membcisJ;om this house to go
; try causes.
C.-beggi-d the st rious attcn-
oi me nouse to this important
question,
lay asile all narrow prejudices j
i w im o
mnrnt
hjij'T aiut them in
respect to it. He wished each man
to ermine fm himself, and to lav
his h;Kt
upon his
he-rt, befre he
vives his vote upo-. it, disregarding
th:
a.;ien;pts v hich are made to
i 1 1 ...
.. t t .
-J.1 cver" ll,cnilJU' recotiect mc re-
SF ontibility which he owe
to the
It .-f .... r1lle Wi'. M 1m in'.l I. ..ifl .-
mbracs of a stranger, whose
I i I r . f iTi"iri.1.i'il i. .n ?
thac he
com-s irosii S. Carolina !
He tLd not wimi
to be thought
sci.piicai; out ne mil t : txcu-eu
if fit ft;d tin' believe tha' the bill be
U.i ti.e h(v;-.e containud the whole
of the sy-it.n of its iriends. He
(ion;it reti it merely as a stepping-
i f
Vjne lo a
ict'i nliich ihe p. ople of
.r
not nr?trvd t.-
t':Cr'i( . l H'
t'c'kl
IS
(said
.v n,
be
poluu al fab. it: of
djsi'.ovtd A:.d
''" Sta'e v
;tn
ay, in.it o!:r systent j
v.
,;c t lac t,
that it ouiiht io be
.l OS- ' i. 1 1 1
ai)ic.;'("e(! r Ir is in v
am
i..t :iie government cm ,
oar s. Th- whole was !
-
o jit and work lo!-eth ,-r, aid
j if yon .ake -way ay of its uarts,
you .'t :v.ry the v.hole machine.
tt. t... conciuued, oy ousernng,
; T.ho o r.n'josed to this b It had
what th.y cor. ceived a good
hbs.dui lor it. Maoy gtutl .men
d ai.irst 'hat, becaue they
V'-U: dci. i mirto to vote against the
vVnolr
tit ir.u.t row, saul ne.
upon the bill it' If as it stands
j a':U h c;t himself bound to give it
ins decided negative.
Mr. Low me rose in support of
ne oiw, aiio it 'S-wi-veu uiai an me co
j, ;o;is ur'ed against the mode of
seieclifii.i ( lie turv Drono!eu, were
jury
ou idcd on the turpitude of th hu
mao heart, and on the supposition
ha tlie ius ices who appointeti the
5 iuror-, .'n the mrors themselv
would act ccruip'dy. Mr L. again
renin: ked on the constitutional ob
jections nu.de tn the bilk and repre
seated urom ; s havingno foundation.
Mr. Norwood agreed with the
gMitlemi n oppo-ed to the principle
of the hill, that it is unconstitutional,
tHe cons itutiosi liaving provided in
express terms, that Judges shall hold
their offices dining good behaviour,
ami the bill contemplating their ap
pointment for three years only.
before gentlemt-n take this step, th- v
ought well to con.ider the hnpor
tant nature of the constitution, and
that the smallest breach of it my?lvt
be brought into precedent from lime
to lime, until that valuable inst ru
men', which is the security of ev y
thing we possess in life, be totally
annihilated.
On the subject of jurors, he had
only one remark to .aU to what hud
fallen from the gentleman from O
r ange. Under the act of '77 ju or-
io the supeiior courts, were directed
lo be. appointed by the county. courv
experience evinced that coirupHol(
"might be 'practised -tinder that regu
!at;on, and therefore tha.1 act war,
amend-d, and jurors were directed
40 be appointed by the courts by tuil
lot. This method is abandoned b
the bill tinder considerat:on. It i
kuom sa-d Mr. N. in what manner
fj floors ?re appointed, and thai h i:
ea-y f(v --a designing man to --appoint
di a jury; as 4e pleases,
Ms?.
It has been said by the gentleman
from Meckhnbur, that most of oat
arguments are founded on the cor.
ruption of human nature. That i'
is greatly corrupt must be admitted
or why so many acts to punish
crimes and prevent fr :uds ; and tho'
he 'had the highest opinion of the
great body of the Justices of this
country, yet Tvi had no doubt that
there are many in that bdy who
act corruptly.
This bill is objectional (said Mr
N.) on another ground. It will hate
the effect of destroying private con
tracts. The contracts at present
subsisting between the councillors
of the supreme courts and their cli
ents. This law wilfekoneraie
ecu Ciller from a contract enter d
Into with his client, as the case win
now be tried where he cnflot ,' at
tend. And his alone would sacri
fice to tie citizens of this country
from 20 to 30,000 dollars.
He objected to another clause in
the bill. It was that which respe? t
ed the removal of suits. The bill
h rrrivizrJ- vl-ifr Mflift r5rf--1
shall state, on oath that they havt
good grounds to beliere they cannf t
have justice in the court of the'eouo
ty in which theyreside, that th
cause shall be removed. The caus;
of removal rests in the opinion and
bcliefof the party, he is not required
to state the grounds of that opinion
and belief in his affidait; and this
will afford another opportunity to
; the wealthy to oppress the poor
i'or when a man of this description
is not prepared for his trial, r ma
ejve reasou to suppose he will lost
his caire, he will, on tome pretence
remove it to anothet county.
Wherefore, said Mr. N. has th
gen le man from Anson attempted
to throw so much odium on the dis
1 1 jet towns ? That they form a strong
aristocracy in the state an asser
tion, than which nothing could be
more unfounded ? Are district towns
attempting to pull down the institu
tions of their ancestors, and pros
trate the works of the patriots and
sages of 76 ? No, it is ihat gentlt
man and those w go accord with him
in opinion. -Might we not reto t on
him, that he is actuated by that mad
spn
ol innovation, woich oTertnrew
all
the vu.jable institutions of the
French Republic, destroyed the li
berties of its citizens, and fixed pn
hem the chains of slaves, by esta
oushiinr orer them the absolute go
vernment of Bonaparte.
. Why has the same gentleman
said so much about tha profits in th
district tow ns by a few inkeejtirs and
merchants ? llow do their profits
infringe the due' administration of
j justice ? Are these profits, under
the proposed system, to be distribu
ted among the people at large ?
No, they are to go to the tavern
keepers and merchants residing at
the county court houses Might we
not retort on that gentleman, that
he owns properly at Anson court
house, and that the passage of this4
bill will have the effect of greatly in
creasing the value of that property.?
He had not advanced a' single sound
argument in f vor of his darling bill,
but had constantly- exhausted the
time of the home in' attempting to
throw odium uprn tfi? district towns
-nd their" representatives. ""-N
Upon ihe whole, he waAH
to the bill in principle and th ttctaii.
Mr. F. Walker said he did not I
intend to me on this quesiiitn, had
ny of the friends f the bill fully ex
pressed his epr.doti ; but s .mts rea
sons occurred to his mind which has;
not neen noticed in favor of the bill
lie wo jld endeavour to state them
to the house in a plain munner.
and not go over the ground already
beaten. He would first take a com
prtive view if the two systems
ihe present district system, which
la . !
rs so ni;niy exaiteu, and tne one on
'he Uble, which contemplates the
extension of that system to every
county in the state. Mr. WT. said
the state oF North-Carolina, accord
ing to the last census, contained
e .r half a million of people, a ma
jority of whom he considered must
be subjects, of judicial authority, in
vinch state there is eie;ht superiors
courts to accommodate tnat numoer
;f people. These districts are the
arViest?in$'itutiojn in the state, and
vvnen founded, w re salutarv an'
- - i
convfcuisnvaud adeuate.to anawcra
all the necessities of the then ixisU .
.'tug state of society. ; He not
know of any new district bein licl
'off except that of Morgan which was
made about 23 years n go, and he
believed there was as many people
now in that district, as there was in
the state at the time the .district
courts were first construued : and
yeu ir is qontended that the present
district courts are a sufficient rtme
dy forall thelKompiaints of th rnul-.
'i plied people. Jl has" been stated, .
sir, that the present distfie' system
vas the result of the wisdom and .po
licy' of the patriots of I he yj?a 769
(rom' wdiicji we ought not to depart,
that a jdepariure would be a direct .in"-"
novation on the judicial syttm, un
hinge the connected "principles' of
that system, and dissolve the bonds .
by which thev are united If this
position be true, that we ought not
to depart from ; he institutions of the"
patriots of '76, it will be so at any
future period, 20, 50 or 100 years
hence ; the same principle will lead
he future a well athe present ge.vl
ncraticn, and thereforSe no'impifve-i-mtnt
can erer bemadd in our judi-
.i.d system. This :s certainly not
rrect reasoning the nature and-
liberty ot our government requires,
'hat every generation should h-gis.
ble for itself. Ctn lmen seem
to mistake the object of the bilh.oa '
your table ; it is not to detorm of
liter thcpresent principicie but to
b ing it home to the people ihat is
to say a superior; court to every
county. What is thedanguage of
he present superior c urt y- mf
ind what does it liold out to the ci-
izens ? It calls upon tne suitor tor
come 2Q. 50 or 100 miles to court,
trough 'cold nd heat, w et and drr,
ther you have n oney or no mo-
vfobcar your expenc.es, you must?
come and vou shall have justice iip
;artial!y no doubt you wilT gel jus
uce impartially, for we never doubt
ed the purity of the system.) It
. alls upon ..witnesses in he same
mandatory (tone, " You must-comet
vou aha' have your dollar per day
when you .an'get t. and for non-at 5
tendance you shail be ftned according
ioactof Assembly." Juroa-s are" also
under the same penalties.
It wasiapnee considered a great
privilege for the poor to hare the gos
pel preached unto them ; and is it
not a p.riyileje although of an infe
rior nature, that the poor have jus
tice administered unto them.
An honorable gentleman (Mr.
Steele) read dome documents yester
day in support ol the present system
I tkt. tlie liberty of stating some
facrb, w Vich, altho' not a thor s d by .
.n officer re ord, are not the less
true. On my way from Uith dWd
to Morgant-.n last superior cotlit, I
sw a wag gon going up focwur with
j a immbcr of infirm and decrepid wit
i nesses, who were unable asI suj po-
Itcd to iro bv sny other rafean's.- "X
th hetrd witness called iid fin.rd'
itccordi, m to act of Assembly '; I af
terward taw the same mn in the
frostier part of Buncombe county,
where he lifed, 100 miles from Mor
gan ton. I asked why he did net at
tend ? He tdii ine he could nof--Thtse,
tir, t- ome "f the effects
of the present boosted system.
I will nc gie reasons why
I think tlie present bill ought to pass
tato a lew. . First, I believe it is
predicated on t.h will of a majority
tf the ciizen nd ha been supt
ported in the clasa raou highly en
terested in the government, an i ac
cording to the true principlts and
policy of our republican system,' the
Vtl! of the people ought to be th'e law
of the land ; wer ve to deny that
principle, ordeoy the people the first
right of dictating for themselves, wo
should become ths tyrants and not
the reprcscntatiT8 the people; A-.
i;am, sir, the bill on the table pre
serves all the powers, authorities,
'privilege's and purity of the present
district system, and sa diffusive in
its effects thst it brings tht highest
tribunal of justice to every man's
,ieorr that is, within his county, re-
medias all the evils and inconvenien
eics m .the present district syttttn so
highly cemplained of, a' d embrace
all thos objects of convenience and
accomodation to ihe citizens, ,-rhich
they h ve a riglit to eiijOf- ff
j would- find another reason ior-pasyDg
! this bill, were w.e to txmyprfozp' t ;t - jj
s9'rc oi te gai . miormaitqi , , v-i- '