. . , , , , : . . . . . -. ..... ,., y . , ."I .V , . . .
vr. . . 1 . . . . - . - iii -i
' T I I . ' . ........ .... . - - aJ ' ." " - ' " -.. ' J
7 DEBATE
. .. . tk Choice ef Electors.
'-BOUSE OF OOfiMOXSjP;
of rwelution- offered by
!e,?V,; l,v;Do(r ihe State Into
ISrofct,.S he State
efd.tthy.thfe friend.
r.fYbeitMlotiiw introduced .on the
l,c Mn, Wilson, proposing
Sdt'oefon of Elector.,
...1 efif nurstioa bcioc: ta
I thcmocioa was negatived 65 to
aauu-...- ,
(4-
movcJ' that his
XrtlVRsinvxn
fee taken up ;
Vhich mo-
beicg Jgrecd to, i: was rcaJ s
.
P. f fin Electors to tote lor a Preikut
cH-Ke PrtiiaerU of the State, ffrcr:
VV t9 t&e prcriMOttf of lb act of Af stnaWjr
The question being stated: 4fom
iz Chair, ,T-
Mr. Z). Cameron moved to ikc
rtiU the resolution except thqword
.prt: W" and to insert trie louow-
'szby way of amendment:
Tlit it ti eiprdient to repeal the elt-
tri? electinj: Elector by a joint ballot,
J to B:t5Tid br htr for layinfr out the State
I asta diitricts to chute fifteen Klectcrs uch
Ecctors for O muiue; election to be elecu
A hi tie Members of ihis Geoeral Aiser
kj reprtscatiog the counties composing
Kxidiitr'rCti and hrrriftcr by the freemen
lie Sate io their respectiYe til jtricts.w,
Mr. S"ne enquired of the Speaker
hfitwerein order to move us an a
crcdment to t propofhioo under con-
titration, the matter of a resolution
which the House had just decided it
txald not now consider ?
Mr. X). Cameron knew of no rule
erproceediog of that house which dc
cbred such a motion out of order.
The houie, it was true,, hid decided
2DSttrlking up hi resolution, but
r question was now on its merits, i
Mr. itzne did not think it was In
crier to ucbte a question rf order.
he had harly akrfi lor the decision
f the Speaker whether the motion
tis in order. It certainly cannot be
a crdcr, because it is contrary to
enmoo sktnse, tn refuse one moment
to consider a subject, and in the next
to move it by way of amendment to
fcciher preposition. The house cculd
wt be tricked out of their will in this
y ; if so, it would be in vain to at
tempt to do business. He hoped the
Chair wcu'd decide.
Mr. Stetk aaid, the motion .was
Pttfecdy consistent with the rules of
proceeding in that house snd all other
Regulative bodies with which he had
been acquainted Though the house
ttjiae to take up a certain; motion,
j-Kdcei not preclude a gendeman
offcrir the same matter in a
pe in which it might be debated,
50 a to afford him an opportunity of
to this bouse and 10 the pub
chi,rcl.mcms on the subject. If
L Chair were to de ide whether or
a member Ehall deliver his sent?
jtcn noy subject, it would indeed
fjercis'rag a very high prerogative.
knew 110 other Way inwhich the
tPi r n-C0U gct n opportunity
Quivering his sentiments on the
5'lcn- . , -'h
Mr. rr. W.Janci 8atif it wonld
f r!"ted that' the. resolution of.
? by he gentleman from Orange,
introduced for the purpose of re
:6e law of last session; Vith
wgany provision for electibg
CI lc"or at the present :time 'by
r V froni lhc district. In
ue shouM tare toted a.
KtSl 1 hx? as P"'posVd in..thlsfa:
itrirolution been adopted,
FWt PrCVeD,!cd s from:e.
" ' hc was t for throwing the
KttthtiU tn the drnurc ana fc r
. rr m.tn.m
: next to piHini oy- 10101
vote of the State away. .7.1 he : matter
01 wis uuicmuutui ucwg Hiuw,uii.i3uusuvUi,c. nesaiQ Qc meaqiiocoo
lereni irom.wc rcaoiuuon, uq nucu nne nimseu to tne constitutionality 01
it wt)uld therefore beK received.. He the'question." ,! ,
wished to have van opportunity- of :Itwodd not.be expecteclJ of, hW
shewtner why he was in favor of elect
ingby districts, rather than by joint
bajlot; .
ThtSptailr decbred thfcrhodon
to be out of order. The ruuvo(all
deliberative bodies, he said, must be
founded in common sense; and it
would certainly be contrary to the
principles of common sense to say,
that a subject which the House had
just decided it would not consider,
honld be immediately recxived by
way oi amendment to another propo
sition.
Mr. D. Cameron appealed to the
house from the decision of the chair.
Mr. Steele called for the yeas and
nays qpon the appeal, which were ta
ken and the Speaker decision was
affirmed 75 to 54.
The question returned bn adopt-
lMMf . - X T T 1 1 r m ...titll. m
Mr D. Cameron moved to post
pone the further consideration of the
resolution till Monday next. Ht did
ndl make this motion, he said,- from
a desire to defeat the election of such
Electors as a majority of that house
was desirous of electiog. It must
have been perceived that his soli mo
tive in bringing his proposition be
fore the house was, to obtain an ex-
pression of the opinion of members
on the two different modes of elec-
ion. Many 'members differ, in opi
nion on this subject j but there were
few who would refuse to give the
State a vote in any shape. . That
members should differ in opinion on
a subject of such importance was not
wonderful. If men think afall,ihev
must difTer In sentiment on every nv
portant subject. By this postpone
ment, he wished to give members an
opportunity of devising. some more
acceptable mode of electing the
lectors than theone prescribed by the
jaw of last session. vMr.C was
going into the merits of the resolu
tion ; but on a suggestion of Mr.
Stone that it was not in order to do
o, hedesisted. 4
. Mr. Steele wished to know at what
time, and in what manner gentlemen
would he at liberty to deliver their o
pinions on this subject generally.
Surehuthe rules of the house would
net deprive them of this opportunity J
f f the rules were so defective, he had
formed an erroneous opinion of them,
and they would require amendment.
He had supposed it was one of 'the
most valuable privileges of a freeman
that his Representative should be
beard on any and every.subject which
came before the Legislature.
' The Speaker informed the gentle
man from Salisbury that he would
have an, opportunity of discussing the
stil ject fully on the question of adopt
ing the resolution the consideration
of which was now moved to be post
poned. The motion for postponemepi was
negatived without a division.
The question on adopting the Reso
lution, being again before the. House,
; Mr Stone callell for the yeas and
nays upon it. - .
Mr. Steele moved to strike out the
whole of the resolution except. the
word 'Reoked? and to nsert the fol
lowing as a substitute :
''That this present General As
sembly view the act of the last Ge
neral Assembly vesting the power of
appointing the Electors of President
and Vice President of the U. States
inthe present Legislature'asuuconsti-
Ituuooal nd an infringement upon the
biMivb nauv.ui9cui uicircc pcopic 01
North Carolina." " -
MKryrTecalied'fo
of thetmotion. iHe .hoped the" fist
question would be on striking out. .
; ;':The queVtioa was so stated f
Mri Steele observed, that though
the question was on! striking out only,
he hefpid he should 'be permitted to
go in to the merits of the question and
not only to shew.the propriety of strik
ing out the substancc.of the resolution
before the house, but of iadopting the
ieJ
H aroendmerit, which he ironbsed as a
Ilk. j ' 2 . . -
that he should undertake to prove, bv
an elaborate arprument, that the ; free
men of North-Caroling ore entitled
to exercise and enjoy all the rights
and privileges secured to them by the
constitution or tne state ana oy usage
tinder that Constitution, except so far
oniy as tnose ngnts;ana- privileges
were surrendered ' or modified in'ex-
press terms by the subsequent adop-
tion of the Constitution of the United
States : He should' have occasion to
refer to the State Constitution to sup
port and illlustrate the first principles
which he should advance. , ' .
There is in our Bill of Rights a
section which declares, " That a fre
quent recurrence to fundamental prin
ciples is absolutely necessary to preserve-the
blessings of liberty." This
declaration he considered as having
reference to cases in which the Legis
lature might be tempted to transcend
its powers and to trespass on forbid
den ground. The other departments
of the Government are so strictly lim
ited, so entirely dependent on the Le
gislature that if aany time they pos
sessed the disposition to transcend
their powers they have not the means
in their own hands to become1 formi
dable to public liberty, so that it was
unnecessary to have a recurrence to
first principles in relation to them.
But it is not so in respect to the Le
gislature. The members composing
mis numerous ooay; coming airectiy
from the people and presuming on the
strength which their confidence in
spires, are apt to imagine they are the
people themselves, and to suppose
that they, have a right to do any thing
that the people themselves might do ; j
ana unaer ine innuence 01 tms un
i 1 . 1 r -ij M
founded pretension they sometimes
exercise powers never intended, to be
delegated to them, and powers which
neither they nor the people would to
lerate in any other department.
With respect ito the tendency of
Legislative bodies to encroach on the
rights of others and' to extend tneir
powers we have high authority. - The
present President of the U. States, in
1788, in a series of papers, part of
which he wrote recommending the
adoption of the Constitution of the
United States, makes use ot these re
markable words : " the Legislative de
partment is every wriere extending the
sphere of its authority, and drawing
all power into its impetuous vortex.
It is againjit the enterprizing ambi
tion of this department that the peo
ple ought td indulge all tjitir jealousy
and exhaust all their precautions."
If this sentiment was correct at the
time it was written .'and justified by
circumstances (and ; Mr. Steele con
tended that it wasj he trusted it would
not give offence to the friends of Mr.
Madison in that house that he had
made the quotation and recommend
ed it to their isnost serious .considera
tion. '
Need I, said Mr. S. attempt to
point out cases in which Legislative
bodies have transcended their Con
stitutional powers 2 The.fact is no
torious. Legislative? bodies, in mo
ments4 of passion, have ; often done
things f which they have afterwardh
had cause to regret. But he did not
wishto take up, the time -of the house
in repeating them.---Cases, even in
this happy Sute might be menupned
where acts of the Legislature have ,
been declared by our Judiciary Tri
bunals unconstitutional and void. If,
then, instances have5 occurred in this
oiaie ana outers wnere -juciswiuictvi
nave transcenqea . tneir powers, u
need not be surprising that the Legis
Iature at the last session,in a?monent
of temporary delusion transtehded
heir po wers . in passings the act now
under consideration. - v ; ; 1
: With'reipect''io first principles it
yill not be denied by any friend of re-1
puoiican government n ims .legisla
ture that all political tSbwerls vested
in ana qenveq iromxne peopie oniy
andKhiBetegaicd tb
be- exercised
for their use and happiness according
to the forms and with the limitations
prescribed in their written constitu
tions. J -;
It will also1 be admitted that 4hc
consdtution of : the United States is1
grant of powers made by the people in
ji tneir sovereign ana unnmuea capaci-
ty, ana in no respect aeper.dent o
or requiring1 the jsanction of the' State
Legislatures to give it validity : On
the contrary, that the State Legisla
tures were placed by the adoption of
that constitution, in relation to the af
fairs of the general government, in a
secondary, if not in a subordinate sta
tion; j with duties to perform, with
powers limited arid controlled in
some instances expressly prohibited
and in all 'others confined to the strict
letter of the grant, and consequently
if the power to appoint Electors is not
expressly given to the State Legisla
tures by the coristitution,' as it5 is not
Confided to any other department of
government, it must be retained fey
the people. ' V ? "
It will also be conceded, that it is of,
the genius of a free State and essen
tial to the existence v of b Republican
Government, that the people should
be allowed to vote and 1 to .exercise' a
direcinfluence over the proceedings
of their public functionaries in all
practicable cases. That it! is practi
cable for the freemen of North-Carbi
lina to vote in the chofce ofTEfectofs
for af-President and Vice-President of
the United States, has been illustrated
and established by the highest possi
ble evidence by the uniform practice
of twenty years, in the course of which
time no instance of violence or confu
sion haa arisen, which would justify
the Legislature, if they had the po w
er, to suspend the exercise of this all
important right?; ' I
It will also be conceded, that the
constitution of the United States be
ing a grant of powers made by the
people, as is among other things ex
pressly Stated in the preamble, for the
preservation of their liberties; like all
such grants it should be construed in
the manner most promotive of, and
consistent with the design of the peoJ
pie themselves in making the delega
tion ; that is:, to say liberally in favor
of the rights, of the people, and most
strictly against the trustees,' or depo
sitaries of theirauithority. Ahd con-
sequently, tnougn tne state legisla
tures are authorised to direct the
manner of fchoosing EtectprSi being
confined to the letter of the grants they
are not authorised , to I extend their
powers by implication, and make the
choice themselves. i
Having premised these general prin.
ciples, Mr. S. recommended them to
the consideration of the house, . and
hoped the members woulc bear them
in mind for the purpose of making an
cation of them to the subject un
der. consideration. : If these ?ftrinci
pies be admitted and thus applied, he
had no doubt they,, would Iead the
house to this irresistable coaclusion
that the act of last session is not jhiy
unauthorized by a fair, interpr'uon
ot tne woras ot ine constirurjonif oin
manitestiy contrary to tne nrstprinxi;
oles of Renubhcan Government.
'He asked leaye to roakela, brief aY
naiysis 01 init icjjiswuvcpuww jc-,
fined in the Constitution of the Unit
ed States, ; from ' whichv he :said, t it
would be seen that ittpuld ne ver-have
been the intention bf Jchepeqple; to
transfer; this power- bf electing Eje c
tors f orn. thenselves to any other bo
dy ;oif men., 'v . -b .' i '' '
By the Constitution of the United
States, "the legislative power is con fi-
ded to the -Presidfeni,: Senate f and"
House of Representatiyesi vThe Pre
sident has: a righV tb parlpate inthel
ii 'to 5give ioi Capgsi:0-
lto?ticne;nfcrinad
the UmonV ad to rec
AnairTf-rarmn sticfi measures as hejbnav
deerrcooducive to the, puh'gb0d
andtnereoy lnitiating.iegisiaiive pusi
ness ivhich Is equivalent to the cbm
mencemintoCit by: motion inieUhe?c
house, 'i iHe has ialsb; p weJ by and;
with the advice of the Senate to maker!
eatiesVaiesiE tieatiesTirri great
lruporuon cases, wicnoui uuc r-
yehtion of the;Hbuel3f Representa
tive? becoflletthMsUp
land.vHeasanm ve po
i, wiucu is cauea a quaiinea nesauve,;
in every case in which it has
yet fcen'exercecl, itxhas amqunted
tp an7abolute :negaj$j
er to stqpja bill in 'jts passge andsencl
it back to Congress with nis objections
ir-after itfhichit cannot become A lawj
except two-diirdsofb
determine, which Jias neVer yet;been
the 'case-;Vf '':ifly ' f. ; j -.
'T'hese" extensive legislative pow ,
ers of the President shbW the greatf ,
interest whicK the" people bve in the
elecnonf w V
; ; The cenater'cx)nsjsts rbf . memDers
chosen byf,the State AXegis!atures?.--
Thisody!Vials
power-il
power iii making laws with the Hbuse-
qf Representatjyes. ';it'"ijJdw6fi
with uve ; Piidentj o rakereatte4
-has naiy ecisioa'onlall im r
mehtsinndthV the President; has?
the arbintrhent bf kUatpublicbip t
ficers. it 'wattn 'jjthe, Scbate thati the ,
State Legislature were intended j by
theCbmtitutipn tolp
and there cMyif jM-C''- '"- p'
Xhe Hcnise of Representatives hive
a cccurrent ppwerA witrih
itf passinGr all laws excent in the cass
j bnreaties alrwd Mentioned. The "
the: Legislature Ithe jeusive powef
of originating, money bjlls and the in-y
qisitpnaf j pbV o
peach ments ; but the Senate' have the :
pb)rve camengibney .
of passing finaljud
peachments so thalt ih the wvcase
where the Hc4se of Rerireentatives '
are entrusted with ar exclusive pow-er!-tc
Briginatesr pfpeeeding, iheSe- '
4 nate have powers which uldmately
balance anq control tnem. . j 71
l-. lt will be recollected that. the Pre-'
sident; Besldl'ssle powers r p
hajther;: vast Djbjiertf'ei
haVe 9er3aj by
no money Uis shall originate but
with their immedtatRepresentatiye
-and naay it not be Inferred . from;
reason, and analogy, that the same,
caution wou?d be exteridect in relatibri
to 'the'p.cer charged withMthe collec
tionand disbursement bf public too- :
nies, and7that he,, as well as the mem
bers of trie House.bf Representatives .
were intended tp fee choseinfieidi
ately by. the peopteyv J itibney bill is
a mere dead letterintil rt comes into
the vhandsof the JP resident to execute
it. All the officers concerned in col
lecting and disbursing the fmblic. mo- ;
nies ace?-.iiqminal3.. "
and rqnfir mejjJ?
agency of - me
sentatives. ; The President having the
power 6f earingbirap JTorei ln;
trcoursei mayhring the Ration into
such'i positionthat shecan neither J -advance
with ;j$ajettip -recede with
horjburJ;ndhe War;
he is i the Qbrnmanier in Chief of the4
fVrmy and Nay v of v me r U States; . ' -
and of the militia - when caU44?tp;
aUervicert-pf Plfff:J,:
the Icntry And ;S Jit piiethatTT
IV ' ' .' . ' .', '. -. " ;' . '-
m. U. J n n . irhf.nnrl .1 aim nit m . -
f:?Tr.V'j:: t?;rmmSmiim:jA 11 it'i:
tv of suchan iristanceiof political soi-
cide rso regardless oiQ)stsencyiro1t
the dictates nf self intestanjef ojiclf;
preservation's to vest the, power of '
appomtinthe Electors; of this great
officer m any 7o
selves ?Th the Ur
States who had principally descended v
rroms, natives" pi a ortat micaw, swno
firbni tiieirieVb
theimnftry; strngeftthe ?evo&
lutionarv ijrarwith the mother cbuni
trythat men thus situated and thus
WtrWedi inlechpbJsjbrexpcrU
ieliceandj adversityi
poWcr of chasing die President' ot the
UStatest ibantherBbody?tJiail
themscl vef isnconc eif apief itcati.
not pe mr. iruc wosMWfUwuv
limattpoweW shbulclhavbbeen gnil-;
whbAadiliemselves
r::n
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