2BThe Daily Tar Heel Thursday, August 21. 1986
Wootem: Loss of influence
Ellis: Share the Earth
TTim Woolen is first vice chair
l man of UNC College Repub
fjD lieans. He said he does not
support apartheid, but differs from
the UNC Anti-Apartheid Support
Group on how it can be abolished.
He currently does not support
further sanctions against South,
Africa.
Do )ou agree with the Senates
decision to impose economic sanc
tions on South Africa?
South Africa is in a position
wtijere the United States helps it
financially but wc do not support
Sopth Africa. Without the United
States, the nation could stand. While
vq are in the country, we are in a
position to push them toward demo
cracy, towards equality." To impose
veity strict sanctions or to divest
wciuld anger the current government,
pushing it more toward the far right,
pr-apartheid faction, while the
United States would become unable
topressure them toward loosening
apartheid restrictions, he said.
The moderate faction is losing
power. 1 know they may seem far
right to us, but there is a far right
wpich supports the apartheid system
. they are even upset with (Pres
ident) Botha because they think he's
gojng too fast. If the moderate force
loses power, jt will leave the far right
arjd the leftist African National
Congress, which has ties to the
Soviet Union. It could lead to a
clih, a bloody civil war.
believe it's a waste when we
ft-
could have an evolution away from
apartheid instead of a bloody revo
luion. Other foreign countries are
polling out of the area and without
us who is going to pressure the
South African government?
$ome would argue that the United
States has not been very effective in
it?' current method of trying to
influence change from within.
That's just not true. Apartheid is
ntjw in the process of being dis
mantled. It's a slow process. For
scone I guess it is too slow. Apartheid
hs been ingrained in these white
people for centuries. It can't be
immediately changed. Overnight
chtange could mean a bloody revo
lution and with a bloody revolution
something could come in that w ould
be; worse than apartheid.
Look at Ethiopia. It was taken
ovieT by the communists and look at
the 'situation; they have mass star- '
vaifon and unrest. Look at Zim
babwe, with its mass killings. Iran
isa situation where we completely
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'We are in a posi
tion to push them
toward equality,
toward democracy.1
withdrew and the Ayatollah came in
with a worse situation than with the
Shah."
But in Iran we continued to
support the Shah. Some might use
that example against you.
"Exactly. We didn't push for
change as we should have with the
Shah. That's why we need to stay
in South Africa and push them
along. Look what happened when
we completely withdrew from Iran."
What effect do you think the
sanctions will have on South Africa?
"Little. They can survive by
themselves. They are a strong coun
try economically, one of the strong
est in Africa, with the possible
exception of Egypt. Without us in
there, the right wing could take over,
say 'They (the United States) .are
supposed to be our friends and look
what they've done; why should we
listen to them?' ... it could push
Botha more toward the far right. It
could push us back 10 years in the
fight against apartheid."
What do you think the United
States' role should be in South
Africa?
"I think we would be an economic
and moral force. We should stay in
there economically. We have lever
age in there, not a whole lot, but
we do have leverage.
"The companies in South Africa
are a force. They treat blacks more
equally than the South African
government, equal pay at least."
The United States could consider
sanctions to fight apartheid, but
slowly and cautiously, Wooten said.
"We have done that to a certain
extent. President Reagan issued the
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Jim Wooten
executive order banning the sale of
gold Krugerrands in the United
States. 1 hate to call it token
sanctions, but that might not be a
bad idea. I think Reagan's executive
order went far enough. I'm not sure'
the, Senate sanctions . were
necessary."
Do you feel blacks in South Africa
want sanctions?
"There are many factions. There's
the African National Congress,
which has said they want violence'
to overthrow the government. There
is Bishop Tutu, who has said he also
wants sanctions, but has not said he
supports revolution, 1 think. And
there is the head of the Zulu tribe,
the largest in South Africa, who has
said he thinks sanctions should not
be imposed."
How do you think blacks will be
affected by the sanctions passed last
week?
. "There will likely be unemploy
ment and if not unemployment,
lower wages.
-"A lot of people on campus don't
understand we are trying to abolish
apartheid. But it can't be done that
fast . . . we've got hundreds of miles
to go and we've only gone a few
miles, but to do it fast could as 1
said bring in something worse than
before."
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ROSEMARY
Jimmy Ellis, a UNC graduate
student in sociology, spoke to
The Daily Tar Heel on Monday
about the U.S. Congress' recent
decision to impose economic sanc
tions against South Africa. He is
originally from Capetown, South
Africa, where he studied and later
taught sociology at the University of
the Western Cape.
"1 think I have been against
apartheid all my life," Ellis said. "My
understanding of what the Christian
gospel teaches about the notions of
justice, righteousness, peace, love
and sharing the earth certainly plays
an important role on how 1 look
upon apartheid."
Do you agree with Congress'
decision to impose economic sanc
tions on South Africa?
"I feel all means of pressure that
are of a nonviolent nature ought to
be exerted and that therefore sanc
tions, as they are a part of nonviolent
measures, are appropriate. We have
to look at them carefully, because
the usual condemnation from the
right-wing or conservative camp is
that sanctions and everything that
goes along with them will hurt the
people that they intend to help."
How do you feel about that
argument?
"1 feel that kind of argument is
tortuous logic, because it does not
address the problem at hand. First
of all, what does it mean to help the
people in South Africa? 1 don't think
that the South African people who
are oppressed at this time are
saying, 'Listen, we want to be more
economically privileged.' They are
not saying 'We want. to be as
economically privileged as the white
people here. They are saying 'We
want a full share of the way in which
this country operates. We want to
be recognized as citizens of this
country, with all the legal and other
social rights and privileges
"The other usual response to that
argument is, 'Hey, black people
suffer anyway, what will it be to
suffer more?' 1 think that is a valid
point, because . . . how many people
over the years have had to suffer this
situation and are saying they don't
mind that the situation gets tougher
if they know that down the road
there will be for them a totally
different situation? But 1 would
hasten to say that that part of the
argument doesn't matter matter that
much to black people. The more
important part of it is that sanctions
. . . affect white people more than
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'We want a full
share of the way in
which this country
operates.'
black people.
"When your business community
in South Africa goes to the govern
ment and says, 'Please change,' it
indicates that here is a sizable section
of the South African community that
feels the pinch of a weakened
economy . . . Also, when the elec
torate, which is responsible for
putting their government in power,
starts feeling that pinch more and
more in their pocketbooks, in their
lifestyles they will rethink that
situation when the next election
comes up.
"It may be a long-term process.
The alternative is always for black
people to sit back and say, 'Well,
let's take the crumbs for now and
let's take the humiliation that goes
along with it, the oppression, the
exploitation.' That alternative is not
an alternative that black people are
happy with, when they have suffered
this long."
What do you think South Africa's
response to these sanctions will be?
"For now, a typical response will
be to say to the world, 'If you do
that impose sanctions, we've got all
these satellite nations surrounding
our borders, so heavily dependent on
us, on our economy, they work in
our mines, in our factories . . .
they're going to suffer.
"The other way in which they will
react is to say 'We will have to go
things alone,' and in a greater sense
than before ... In the Carter admin
istration, there were also talks of
sanctions "and tougher, policies
toward South Africa.. One of the
things they the South African
government did at the time was to
develop a total strategy to fight what
Heart Association
X.
... :
Jimmy Ellis
they called the 'total onslaught.'They
perceived not only communist
aggression . . . through Mozam
bique and Angola, but they per
ceived that total onslaught also to
be this kind of of pressure that comes
from nations that used to be their
friends. And the total strategy was
really a military concept, inspired by
the military. The idea was to get
everybody behind the government's
policy of fighting this total ons
laught. They had a number of big
conferences with the business com
munity and it was given that they
were unpatriotic if they did not
support what the government was
doing. Similarly, the Church was
made to feel unpatriotic if it did not
support apartheid.
"The whole society was prepared
in that way. It doesn't mean that
everybody accepted that. But. that
certainly said that there were enough
politicians shrewd enough to say,
'Listen, we've got to devise strategies
that may appear as if it is some
unifying force.' "
What do you feel the United
States' role should be in dealing with
apartheid?
"The United States should make
an adequate and more sensible
analysis of what apartheid really is,
recognize which of the groups in that
society are working toward those
ideals that Americans themselves
subscribe to, and not just camouflage
it under their present pronounce
ments against apartheid and support
of justice.
"Because if you uphold these
values, but you make a wrong
analysis of what the situation is all
about, it's worthless. What the policy
ought to be is to distinguish who are
those groups there and support those
people. Support them in a way that
is meaningful, that indicates that you
seriously want to deal with the
situation. It means that U.S. policy
toward the African National Con-1
gress as a communist-inspired guer
illa or 'terrorist' organization ought
to change. I know that will be hard,
but certainly there is something to
be said for trying to understand
them, what the ANC is trying to say
and do. At least allow the American
public to be informed about this
organization and what it is doing.
But of course there are other groups
including the United Democratic
Front and the National Forum
Committee.
"People tend to see the thing still
as a black-white struggle. The media
often report on what is called 'racial
violence.' I don't know why one
should call it racial violence, because
it always brings out the notion that
there are races clashing with one
another. That may be true in part,
but the fact is that the government
now is no longer just a white
government. There are members of
the other groups that have been
brought into government who now
have to bear the responsibility for
apartheid."
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